For all you old guys

guitarfreak12 said:
Ok I don't know what forum to put his in. So if it belongs somewhere else, tell me.
I just have a general question/discussion, For all the guys who have been recording for more than 10-15 years. Before all this digital stuff started becoming more available.
Analog recording and digital back then from my understanding was very hard. Not that this stuff isn't hard now. but it required more patience, more creativity, and stamina. I think it was more of an art form than it is today. Just to get what you wanted down perfect, and not lose everything in the process seems like it can be very trying. Plus So much more talent seems to have been required. I say this, because I have tried some analog stuff, and I have been around analog before. And I could not record what I have recorded with the minimal amount of experience I have, if it wasn't for the ease of digital. Albums can be created in a fraction of the time it used to take. This is what I gathered anyway.
So my question is this, are any of you who learned how to record in the analog world, a little resenting of the ease and sometimes lack of respect that comes from the faster, easier less analog world. Do you get a little pissed off that someone can now just come along and do what ever he can think up with jest ten or twenty clicks of his mouse, when before it took you 40 hours of sleepless worry. And it really can only cost you the price of a small program, in come cases free (assuming you already have a computer) and a cheap mic and pre, and turn out some alright stuff, when it took you thousands of dollars and four times as much time, to turn out alright stuff. I know that I used to get pissed off when I grew up (being the oldest of 4) and saw my parents letting my siblings get away with stuff I never would have been able to do. That's a weird analogy, but it's all I got. I may be way off, and please don't think I respect guys who have only the digital experience any less, because you are still better than me at what you do. And I might have accidently started some bad thoughts in my way. But I have sort of a different respect for the guys who know a different world of recording, when it was really hard.
Click to expand...

Well, the fact of the matter is that a great album done any way you cut it is the same amount of work. You can't get something for nothing.

Back when analog was the only thing around, it was all in the performance. Musician's had to rehearse and get their shit together because an analog edit was a big deal. Engineers really did editing as a last resort as it is not really too healthy to cut the tape. So, the time was in the practicing and arrangement of the music. When the band was ready, the analog tape rolled and the songs were done in a few (or more) takes. After that, the overdubs were done over a period of time.

Now we have the digital stuff. Today, the "engineer" is not so much a "sound" guy as he is a "computer" guy. They make the basic tracks and spend most of the time editing on the computer. This takes TONS of time in itself. The end product is close to perfect but has been hacked to death (in the worst case). The main problem today is that basic tracks are being done by many engineers who don't understand the fundementals of recording and passing off really bad tracks to a pro mixing engineer. The pro mixing houses are complaining about this regularly and they say it is getting worse. So, the time involved has been shifted from the band in the analog days to the mix engineers in the digital days.

Digital is too easy to make bogus tracks with the premise that we will "fix-it-in-the-mix"

Go to MARSH website and get into the "Distorted Guitars" thread and you will start to understand the problem with the digital production industry today.
 
just a few comments.
i think its all in the hands of the user and how good he is as an audio engineer. i'm still learning after too many years on both analog and digital and just do the best i can. FOR ME i wouldnt go back to analog.
i never went dat for mastering when the dats came out because i was warned about possibly tape leeching over time.
so beware if you you have any dat masters. do back ups to another medium.
there were some articles on this a few yrs back in MIX magazine
or maybe studio sound. forgotten which.
i think you can do excellent songs in either medium if you have the chops.
 
Digital is not better because it's easier...

...I have recorded a 17-track song and the singer's out of tune. He wrote the song and arranged it, there ain't no way we're going to find another person to sing it. Bring on the Auto-Tune!

There is a perception that any kind of crap performance is acceptable because of all these tools we have, but I still tell people "you perform it, I record it." I don't even mention the ability to fix things because as soon as a musician hears "fix it in the mix" (s)he starts to get sloppy. That's a hell of a way to run a railroad, in my opinion.

But if you're obsessive, man! You can tweak til the artist's grandchildren are asking about "that CD grandpa was supposed to be working on when he died."
 
My beef with digital was that it never had the warmth of analog. This seems to be changing recently with super audio CDs.

Of course over time, you learn to appreciate both. But to continue the stamina of your question, analog recording isn't as flexible as digital is, but you bet I still rely on both. ;)

My philosophy: "Take the best of both worlds"
 
This is ONLY my opinion and you may not share it

BUT I firmly believe that a lot of the bad rap digital gets for lack of "warmth" (or maybe an excess of "coolth?") is that so many more beginning tweezeheads are recording on digital than ever did on analog, with predictable results.

Note that I did NOT say that **your** digital mixes aren't warm because you are a stumblefingered flopwit, and in fact I think your mixes are toasty warm as they are, and at the next opportunity I will tell your mother exactly that.

Take the best of both worlds, indeed. The last time I looked, it's STILL the 21st Century.
 
lpdeluxe said:
But if you're obsessive, man! You can tweak til the artist's grandchildren are asking about "that CD grandpa was supposed to be working on when he died."
Click to expand...

Almost had coffee come out my nose laughing at that one... :D
 
The only thing I don't like about digital is when listening to FM radio, and the station has compressed everything flat so it just comes out like a fizzy drink.

And that's on top of the compression/limiting applied to the master.

That didn't happen so much in the old analog days
 
i don't think anyone presently can come close to producing the results that the old masters did.

read walter sear's articles regarding this.

personally though i like the fact that i can do my best and take forever on analog, then, dump into the shareware and burn to cd.

all in a days work!!!

best of both worlds.
 
I thank God for digital recording everytime I hit the UNDO key because I accidentally punched in on the wrong track. In the analog days that was a disaster.
 
Digital coldness....Hmmm...

I don't think this is as much of an issue now as it was even a couple of years ago. There is a certain harshness to low end convertors but the more expensive ones do all right to my ears. I can compensate for any residue of harshness with a few plug ins.

Overall, I think a lot of people are honing the methods of digital and in a few years this is not going to be an issue. Having something interesting to record; now that's the real challenge.
 
Middleman said:
Having something interesting to record; now that's the real challenge.
Click to expand...


Amen Brother!
It's like having the fastest car in the world with no place to race it.

It's like having your own jet airplane and no passengers.

It's like well.....you get the point.

C
 
man, I didn't meant o get another A vs. B discussion going here. I should have guessed that would happen anyway. Just wanted to get peoples veiws on whether they agree with me about how much is taken for granted
now-a-days. Which some of you have said, very very well indeed.
 
guitarfreak12 said:
man, I didn't meant o get another A vs. B discussion going here. I should have guessed that would happen anyway. Just wanted to get peoples veiws on whether they agree with me about how much is taken for granted
now-a-days. Which some of you have said, very very well indeed.
Click to expand...

When you start a thread with old guys in the title your gonna get a history lesson no mater what. I could go on for days about the music industry but *hey* what's the point.
It's all Millie Vanillie in and out of the studio anyway.

C
 
think all the digital stuff has made for a lot of lazy productions. There's a lot less ingenuity, hard work and love going into recording music today. And having everything handed to you so easily also makes you appreciate it less...

I understand the interest in a home recording aspect...but for pros, i think it's just inducing laziness...

Welcome to todays society of convenience and disposability
Click to expand...


guitarfreak12 said:
Thats exactly what I was trying to make a point of, I think we've lost our creative edge in a way and love of it because it's so easy to click on a reverb plugin, or use the thousands of presets on any given effect. Not to mention these so called "musicians" today who just patch together a bunch of loops that were almost put together for them on some website or preset, they just added some words. Plus, look at how many people are putting out records, compared to even 5 years ago. Everyone who has got any fame, not even 15 min, more llike 2, is puting out an album, not they're songs, they just can be "made" a good singer like Han said. I never said that digital was better. Analog, when it done by the right people is always better than digital. Trust me, that's not what I meant. I just meant, it's easier, and less emotional.
Click to expand...

The assumption being made in these quotes is that the 'digital revolution' induces a block to creativity, because artists now have an easy way out of being creative. For 'real' artists, that does not make sense. It would seem to me that many artists find success in the digital realm, because to them the medium has always been irrelevent, or, whatever the medium might be - they will push it to innovation. In other words - they have an inherent need to take on that responsibility, regardless of the medium. Digital can be as much about innovation as it can be about laziness.

Great discussion guys! :)
 
When the performance is more inspired, the recording medium becomes less important

A Dutch producer who lives and works in the USA has a column in a music magazine.

He says there's more and more the need to record like they used to do in the seventies. He's mixing Protools recordings with not a single edit.

At least some music that breaths and where the homework was done before the lesson started.

The intervention of the majors is getting lesser, it may be possible that the vintage sound, the sound of fourty years ago, may become the sound of the future.

This has nothing to do with analog or digital, it's just the music that counts.

You guys should all read Walther Sears articles, "What have they done to my art" .

Have a very nice day.
 
Bulls Hit said:
When Jimmy Page got hold of the old 8, 16 and 24 track tapes of live Zep shows from the 60's & 70's as material for How the West was Won and DVD, they put up the 1st tape and the coating started peeling off onto the heads. It had just jellified. They had to bake the tapes in an oven for a couple of days just to get one shot at digitising them.

And yeah it was a PT rig that saved them
Click to expand...

Baking tapes is standard practice for archival recording/restoration. I am really suprised they did not bake the tapes before putting up the first tape.

I wonder what kind of problems people will be having when then try and pull up a cuebase session stored on a usb hard drive 40 years from now.
 
Ronan said:
Baking tapes is standard practice for archival recording/restoration. I am really suprised they did not bake the tapes before putting up the first tape.

I wonder what kind of problems people will be having when then try and pull up a cuebase session stored on a usb hard drive 40 years from now.
Click to expand...

The need will dictate the means.
Humans are resourceful by nature. Give us a problem to overcome and we will work our hardest to find a solution.
Of course till there is a Nuclear Holocaust and the intense EMP's wipe out any form of magnetic storage. :rolleyes:
Then, it's back to the drawing board for those who are left.
 
i have never worked with analog units for recording... so I cannot say how much harder it actually is. but as you guys have more experience, i do believe that digital has made things a lot easier and cheaper on our part. i guess in a way it seems unfair, because digital home recording systems are fairly easy to pick up. HOWEVER, i dont think it is easy to get a professional sound. it takes almost no effort nowadays to get a decent mediocre quality mix, but you still need recording/mixing/mastering skills and experience to get that top notch professional sound. that is what separates the young ones like me from the old guys like you. there will always be people putting out half decent sounding stuff with little knowledge. but experience still shows!

i plan on going to fanshawe college in london (ontario, canada) for their music industry program. i'd like to become a knowledgable audio engineer and run my own studio full-time. there are going to be so many people making money with home recording units that i cannot compete. hopefully my education will set me higher than the others, making it easy to stand out amongst the many other studios out there.

knowledge/experience still shows
 
Thanks For A Good Read Fellas, Thank You , Thank You

I havent been back to this site in about a year and half, maybe two
with the optional ------- STOP BY TO TAKE A LOOK AND SEE WHAT"S GOING ON.

But now I frequent just a little bit more, since the phaze of "WHICH SOFTWARE, HARDWARE, ANALOG, DIGITAL YADDA YADDA is BETTER'

Well I have to say this has been the BEST READ IN A LONG TIME, so much LOGIC in the sentences i've read, so much DEFINITIVE questions & answers given and said. I hope some of these up and coming dudes surf onto this site, because THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE LEARNED,
"It's not the gear, it's the person behind it" I always say, and my how you fellas have clarified it in a deeper context.

I will print this out to make my own BOOK (YALL SHOULD TOO)
I always do this with informative information. I use it to show some of my clients or friends or upcoming producers so it doesnt seem like I'm preaching to them.

There are a lot of people UN-INFORMED, keep the lessons coming fellas and let's IN-FORM them.

Peace and Blessings fellas ----- I'm loving what's going down
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top