First gig in AGES....

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SOUND DIAGNOSIS

SOUND DIAGNOSIS

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I am about to embark into my journey into the music business. (Local for now.) I have been fortunate to have been in another profession for 25 years and am very comfortable financially so I really do not need this work to make a living. But after "discovering" my voice and being in production of my material (cover songs for now) for 16 months, 1 of which served for a 2 song demo CD, I am polished and ready to rock. (I am a solo singing act with my own backup arrangements produced by a Kurzweil synth/workstation.) Are there any tips that any working musicians on this board can impart to me so I can have an edge on the clubowner/entertainment directors "way of doing things"? For example, do these folks pay off the books? Is there any sort of a "pay scale" anymore? Is 40 minutes on and 20 off the usual arrangement? If for some fortunate reason I am wanted by 2 venues the same night, how would one handle the situation without pissing off a prospective client? I know, lots of questions, but the "search" function on this site did not let me search the "gigging" department. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated on this side of my monitor. Thanks in advance. --- L.T.
 
I hate to break it to you

I dont know were you hail from or what the scene is like but Generally the universal club owner \ musican relationship goes disgustingly aginst the musician for starters you can frget getting paid at first (sorry thats the harsh reality) club owners like their profits and dont like to share espesially if a self respecting musician wants to be paid what thier worth the club owners perspective is this

"why pay this guy when thiers a bunch of fifteen year olds who will do it for free!"

Now i live in the worst city in the world for this Toronto were you dont even get to try to play for an audiance for free if you want a gig you got to rent the club and not just that on a shit night like a Monday or something. However if your a more balanced song act you can probably hit the open mic nights Yeah there the lowest of the low but for many their a good way to get the feet wet and iron out the bugs before dealing with a real audieance

but dont despair!

the music buisness is a trial by fire if you can prove that your good for buisness and that you'll bring people in then the club owner (i say club owner but it can be resturant, dance hall or anyplace that employs a versitile musician) will start to toss you a bit of table scrap as time goes on and you build a reputation those table scraps will turn into a decent meal

yeah it sucks! but thats how it goes.
 
the music buisness is a trial by fire if you can prove that your good for buisness and that you'll bring people in then the club owner......
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"It's a pretty good crowd for a Saturday..
The manager gives me a some scraps...
'Cause he knows that it's me
They've been comin' to see....
To forget about life whilst they craps"....:D :D :D


So that's the real version of dat' tune, eh?

Hey Nag, is Toronto that fucked up with the music scene? I have never heard of such hardships for talented acts to get at least something going on where I have lived. (Formerly in
N.Y.C, now S.W. Florida.) You mean to tell me, if some GREAT act gets a gig and brings in a shitload of business, the manager 's offer of a miniscule "retainer" cannot be negotiated upwards to compensate you for your draw? You mean these clubowner people are cheap-ass, piss-poor excuses for human excrement?

Well then, if your presentation of the scene is that bad in that wonderful city called Toronto, which I have visited many times, I ain't gonna visit you next time around. :)


Hey seriously, thanks for responding.

P.S. I take it you have a day job? ;)
 
I've been playing 2-5 night a week for the last 30something years and I wouldn't dream of playing for free. And I can't speak for everywhere but I know a lot of the scenes in the south and I don't hear of clubs expecting bands to play for free.
Yes many bars pay cash. Usually when you work for large places or chains they'll give you checks and 1099's but smaller places are often cash.
It really depends on how much you like to play. I usually insist on at least $100 but if it's something I want to do I'll play for less. It just depends.

edit....uh...that's $100 a man I meant to say
 
yeah

Yeah toronto is that way. There is a reason though over the past many years toronto has seen a disgusting splurge of crap acts were talking bands that play a set of Nirvana covers and then a set of Nirvana B sides for a show (mucking them up in the process) and these arnt teenage acts either, so its no small wonder club owners refused to pay for crap. the bitch of it is those of us who refuse to lower our standards in playing shows have to bite the bullet

but it doesnt bug me there are ways i can get around it toronto is very close to many other major cities which deliver fairer treatment not only that but in toronto itself the few talented acts have no real competition so putting up with shit is something that only has to last for so long

and yes unfrtunatly i at the moment do have a day job
 
I agree with Lt. Bob - most small clubs pay cash whereas the larger clubs/restaurants/hotels pay by check and issue 1099s.

There is no specific scale (there is a union scale - but 90% of the club acts are not union - or at least do not quote union scale). Any given city has a general value they place on local musical acts (anywhere from $250 - $2500 per night give or take) based on the reputaion of the act,etc. It may be possible to negotiate meals, rooms or perhaps an ad budget, with a club (we often assure the club we will run adds in the local papers and maybe some radio spots - but we build that cost into our price)

As a rule, most musicians should try to set a goal of $70-$100 per man - but as Lt. Bob said, it depends on how much you want the gig. It is a sad fact that there are musicians that will play for free, which runs the value down for all working musicians. There are clubs that expect you to play "for the door" and we've all heard of the imfamous "pay to play" scams that strated in LA many years ago. Personally, I won't play those places.

I have found that if you leave the downtown "metro" areas and play the suburban clubs or play 10-50 miles outside of the city - you will find paying gigs. The free gigs and "for the door" gigs tend to be in the "hip" downtown clubs.

Like Lt. Bob, I've been gigging for almost 35 years and athough I've cut back to 30-50 gigs per year, there were many years where I played 5 noghts per week. I can probably count on one hand the number of "free" gigs I've done (a few benefits and 2 gigs when I got stiffed) - although there were many gigs when the bar tab was more than my pay (but I was young and foolish).

I currently do gigs that range from $40 to $300 - which basically reflects jazz club gigs on the low end of the scale (which I do because I love playing jazz) and country club "society"gigs (which are no fun but pay well). The irony - is that I made the same amount per gig in the 60's and 70's - there has been no increase to reflect inflation - I figure I should make $600-$1000 per night just make the "same" that I did 35 years ago.
 
Hey Sound,


play where you can whether its paid or not...... Just build an audience first...... I wouldn't be too concerned with a big payday right out the gate.....however, once it is known that you attract a crowd your bargaining power goes way up........
 
gec said:
play where you can whether its paid or not...... Just build an audience first...... I wouldn't be too concerned with a big payday right out the gate.....however, once it is known that you attract a crowd your bargaining power goes way up........
Click to expand...


Thanks Gec and all for the advice. It has been very helpful. :)
 
mikeh said:
The irony - is that I made the same amount per gig in the 60's and 70's - there has been no increase to reflect inflation - I figure I should make $600-$1000 per night just make the "same" that I did 35 years ago.
Click to expand...
No shit! We've talked about that many times. Musician is the only job I can think of where the pay hasn't budged in 30 years. Back when I first started I made about $100 a night and on good nights I made a couple hundred. Now 38 years later it's still generally the same.
On all the other issues I think mikeh covered it quite accurately.
 
UHHHH im dumb

all of a sudden i feel quite foolish it appears that im going about things compleatly the wrong way, but i ask you gentelmen

what can a band that plays rather left field music do to make money there is a large audience were i live for what i do but my problem is i keep getting grouped into a catagory of bands Namely the local punk and metal acts which be it because of thier age or the stars in thier eyes are all to willing to play for free or get roped in to the pay to play sceme they all have audiences and followings just as big as any other kinds of acts in my opinion
the amount brought into the club is just as legetimate

but what can one do? is the kind of music i play simply not feesable?

(mind you i am not punk or metal i get lumped into the catagory)
 
"First gig in AGES....
I am about to embark into my journey into the music business. (Local for now.) I have been fortunate to have been in another profession for 25 years and am very comfortable financially so I really do not need this work to make a living. But after "discovering" my voice and being in production of my material (cover songs for now) for 16 months, 1 of which served for a 2 song demo CD, I am polished and ready to rock. (I am a solo singing act with my own backup arrangements produced by a Kurzweil synth/workstation.) Are there any tips that any working musicians on this board can impart to me so I can have an edge on the clubowner/entertainment directors "way of doing things"? For example, do these folks pay off the books? Is there any sort of a "pay scale" anymore? Is 40 minutes on and 20 off the usual arrangement? If for some fortunate reason I am wanted by 2 venues the same night, how would one handle the situation without pissing off a prospective client? I know, lots of questions, but the "search" function on this site did not let me search the "gigging" department. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated on this side of my monitor. Thanks in advance. --- L.T.



S.D.
You're in SW Fla? I assume you're talkin' Ft. Myers - Tampon? My wife and I have been gigging out of Miami and the Keys since '85. The market for singles or duos here is mostly bars and restaurants - most clubs want dance bands. The best money is in restaurants. We did two years at a local TGI Fridays (I can HEAR you all laughing! - Stop that!) - it was $150/day for two sets Sat and Sun for the brunch crowd. Easy money. Plus, we got a ton of referrals out of it - weddings, parties, etc.
As far as having an "edge" on owners down here, forget about it. They are, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, a-holes. Show up and start on time, be compliant with the owner's requests ("TURN IT DOWN!!!"), tip the wait staff and encourage the customers to tip as well, and be ready to do some realy lame requests for the touristas (polish up your Buffett):D

"Is 40 minutes on and 20 off the usual arrangement? "

Try 45/15

If there's anything we can do to help, just let me know. Good luck!

Bob
 
My regrets to you - if indeed your Toroto music scene is that hard (although it sure is a great city - I was just there two weeks ago - en route to Niagra Falls).

I must admit the best paying gigs do tend to go to cover bands and/or more "mainstrem acts". If your music is "left of center" you may have to either tough it out in Toroto, look for work outside of Toronto, or try to incorporate some "mainstrem" music into your act.

Only you know what yur willing to do to get some paying gigs. Good luck.
 
Buffalo Bob said 45/15 for sets/break and I suppose technically he's right. But I hate stopping after 45 minutes. I normally do 1 1/2 hours....take 20 then another hour....take 20 and then finish on out. It's only 2 breaks so club owners are cool with the 20 minute breaks. Down on Fla. where it's a lot of tourists with a quick turnover 45/15 probably works ok but if you're in a dance or partying type club, I think 45 minutes is too short a set. You just get going good and it's time to stop....the same with your audience. For the record....I do both a band and a seq duo where I am the only singer so I'm familiar with needing a break now and then but IMHO the way I do it makes the night go by much quicker. Playing 4---45 minute sets just drags by unbearably long to me. there will be some clubs that want you to take breaks more often but they are rare and if they leave it up to me I'm gonna play the longer first set.
 
I also hate the 45 on 15 off sets. We normally do 60 on and 20 off.

If I had my way I'd take one or two 5 minute breaks for a piss and a drink and play straight through.

I enjoy playing - I don't enjoy sitting around and I enjoy talking to drunks who "used to be in a band" even less.
 
mikeh said:

I enjoy playing - I don't enjoy sitting around and I enjoy talking to drunks who "used to be in a band" even less.
Click to expand...

:D:D No shit! I love to play and if I'm gonna be sitting in a bar....I'd just as soon be playing. And I'm with mikeh.....talking to barroom patrons goes on my list of things I like about as much as getting a root canal!
 
Been playing in bars since I was 15 - funny thing is, I never actually go to a bar. Too depressing. Sad, lonely people perched on a stool in some dark bar - takes all the enjoyment out of drinking for me.
 
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