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Cloneboy Studio

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This is my near-final equipment list. Any gear heads that want to comment/critique while I make sure that this is indeed what I want/all needs are being met type setup. Note that this is only centered on the recording gear. Cabling/patchbays and a few instruments are on a seperate budget and have been accounted for.

Core Digidesign Setup:

ProTools HD 1
Control 24 User Interface
96i Audio Interface
Digidesign MIDI
Apple G5 Dual 1.4 GHZ

Gives me 16 simultaneous channels of recording, 96 48khz tracks, 48 96khz tracks, and 24 192khz tracks, and a great user interface for mixing. Not enough DSP power for how I do plugins, so I know I'll have to rely on some host processing, and some "recorded with plugs on" style recording--which is how I record anyway (EQ/COMP setup before hitting play).

Core TDM Software:

McDsp Analog Channel
Antares AutoTune
Eventide Reverb
Eventide Clockworks
Bomb Factory Pultec Bundle
Bomb Factory Classic Compressor Bundle
Waves Musician's Bundle II
Sony Oxford Inflator

High end essentials, and a few of my favorite TDM's.

Outboard/Preamp:

SPL Charisma 8 Tube Processor
Universal Audio 2108 stereo preamp
Universal Audio 2-610 stereo tube preamp
Focusrite ISA 428 quad channel preamp
ADAM P33A Nearfield Monitors

8 channels of amazing preamp, and 16 more okay Focusrite's on the Control 24, plus 8 channels of tube coloration from the SPL.

Microphones:

3 Sennheiser MD421
2 AKG 414BXLS (stereo matched pair)
1 AKG C451b
2 Royer R-121 Ribbon Mics
1 Audio Technica AE2500
1 ElectroVoice RE20
1 Shure SM7
1 Earthworks QTC-1 Omnidirectional Microphone
1 Soundelux U195 FET Microphone
1 Crown PZM-300 Boundary Microphone
4 Shure SM57

Focusing on quality and versatility. Unfortunately no tube mic yet because the U87's are just too darn pricey. I had to choose between the Royers and the Neumann and the ribbons won. I considered an AT4060 because those are great, but I'm digging the sound of the Soundelux more (underrated mics).

Notes on setup:

Too many limitations on preamp/microphones if I got a HD2 or HD3 setup... HD1 will have to do in the short term. I scaled the software budget to 1/2 what it originally was. Fairly easy upgrade once I get rolling. I also went fairly plugin light, but made sure to have both broad-stroke and fine-tuned EQ and compression. Made sure to get the BF plugs. The RenEQ and RenComp in the musician's bundle will have to do for any fine or generic compression/EQ (although I got the musician's bundle mostly for the Waves Doubler--the first digital chorus that sounds good to me).

Preamp-wise I'm good--2 channels of tube preamp, 2 channels of boutique 2108 preamp for kick/snare, and 4 more ISA Focusrite channels. Plus there are 16 more Focusrite Plat pre's on the Control 24. For the sounds I like my pre's are rocking!

To further fatten up my sound the SPL Charisma 8 is there to lend a hand. 8 independent channels of real tube saturation before hitting the ADC's should keep things sounding pretty analog.

The ADAM P33a is a step up from the Tannoy Ellipse 8's that I was looking at, but a step down from the S3A I'd want. Oh well.

Believe it or not microphones were the hardest thing to choose on a budget. Just too many fine mics! I wanted to make sure I had a good spread of variety, but able to meet all my requirements, plus the ability to record drums, two guitars, bass and vocals simultaneously (it would be *tight* but I could manage). I have 18 mics total, 9 different varieties, 9 dynamic mics (4 types), 1 small diaphragm condenser, 3 large diaphragm condensers (2 types), 1 omni mic, 1 PZM mic and 2 ribbon mics (1 type).

Note that there aren't any AKG D112's on the list. Honestly, I was getting drum sounds the other day and I am just sick of that D112 sound. It's decent enough but it makes everything sound pretty much the same. When a 1800 dollar OCD kick drum sounds the same as a 500 dollar Tama you know something's rotten in Denmark. So I threw a MD421 on there and called it a day.

Just in case any metal dudes show up with double kick sets I have 3 MD421's to spare. If not I can use them for toms. I have SM57's to pick up the snare or tom slack (as many as 4 toms, about as most as you'll tend to see anymore--if they have 5 I'll put a MD421 on the floor tom).

The way I see it I have a LOT of drum choices: AKG 414's on overheads or the Royers? Earthworks omni in the room or PZM on the wall? C451 is pretty much high hat only, but that's my all time favorite for hats (SM81 is good too). For snare I can drop the AE2500, MD421, SM7, SM57, RE20 or even 414 on them if I wanted to. For kick it could be RE20, MD421, AE2500 or SM7 easily.

If you haven't already guessed my loan is approved, I'm just finishing up some financial planning to "seal the deal" and satisfy the bean counters at the bank.
 
Hey Cloneboy.

Nice list of stuff. The problem is this is all very subjective to your style of mixing. I dont necessarily dislike the Protools setups but i really dont feel its needed with your setup. It can be really great to work with but it also costs alot more money.

I worked on an HD2 with a Control 24, 96io, with the Oxford EQ, Waves Platinum 4.0, Focusrite d2/d3, etc. The nice thing that you do have is the 96i which has the 16 inputs 2 outs instead of the 8 in and out 8 out. That thing was practically worthless in my opinion. Although it is nice if you need to run outboard gear. This is one setup that outboard gear on post is possible. I really wasnt too impressed with the Control 24 most of all. I think its cheaper now then when i had it but basically what you got with the 7k is a giant mouse with 16 shitty preamps. The preamps were seriously weak in them. Made things sound worse then they were in my opinion. But in your case you have a nice selection of preamps. So you basically buying the Control 24 for the automation. Its really nice, but there are cheaper options for automation. Im a believer that Protools is made for the bigger boards like SSLs and Neves. Systems where your doing really serious mixing and need massive amounts of channels. But i think for a project studio like your building theres much more you can do with you money.

What did i change to?

Soundcraft Ghost 24LE (Bought used)
Alesis HD24 For Frontend (Big extra bonus for portability)
Motu 2408mk3 (Many options for these part though. Got this for flexibility later on)
Mackie UAD-1 (These things are amazing for DSP. And they are dirt cheap in my opinion.)
Waves Platinum (Yah with the money you save you could get this and its way cheaper than TDM)

Do the math. If youve got the money you could do a nice upgrade with the Soundcraft Ghost idea. Think of the mixer you could get. You might even be able to find a mixer in the price range with automation. Either way, buying a controller for automation will be pocket change compared to the Control 24. This allows 24 tracks of 24/48 at one time (12 at 24/96) and thats only at a time. Buy yourself a good Native computer system and youll be pushing way more tracks then that HD1.

Youll have alot more options with your money in my opinion and the HD24 has awesome converters. You might even be able to pick up 8-16 gold converters with the money you save.

But some people have a personal preference to working in Protools and thats fine too. I just couldnt justify keeping that system myself. Especially when im totally content still doing automation with a mouse.

Adams makes good monitors but they are very subjective to peoples tastes also. Make sure you really like them before you get them.

Mic wise. This is also really personal preference. And a u87 isnt a tube mic ;). Dont get U87s anyway you probably wont like them. I wouldnt get both a EV RE20 and a SM7. My guess is you wont need both of them and you will probably be happier with the SM7. 2 Royer ribbons would be nice. But these really arnt very versatile in my opinion. These are very colored and only have specific uses in my opinion. Its subjective of course though. I dont think id ever use them for drum over heads. It would be a cool color, but for around $2400 pair when your trying to be versatile, they wouldnt be my first mics to purchase really. Maybe one would be good. I also bet with one of the Royers out of the way you would be much happier with a second Earthworks for stereo. One will be ok but you will probably find much more use as a stereo pair. Soundelux is definately a good choice. I had the U95 once and i loved it. I slap myself every day for letting it go. MD421s are a good choice in my opinion. But it might be a better idea to go two MD421s and one MD441. Also try and include a pack of e604s. For a great alternative to the AKG D112 which im not too fond of either, try out the Senn e602. MD421s dont work on all kick drums unfortunately. The 441 will be an awesome addition by the way instead of a third 421. Great idea with the C414s. No complaints with that. Ive never used a PZM but im sure that will be great for alot of things.

Now my biggest advice. Buy everything that you can used. Its a pain in the ass to do with alot of equipment. But for the big stuff, you will save alot of money. The 421s and the 441 will be a big save on money. C414s should be cheaper also. Buying used isnt always efficient though. But seriously get what you can get and stand to get used. The mixer will definately be worth getting used. Especially with the protools setup if you go that way. Used Control 24s are around 4 grand i think. Dont know about the HD systems.

Thats all i have to say for now. What are you buying all the equipment for anyway? Whats the situation? Upgrading your studio or is it a studio from scratch?

Good luck.

Danny
 
Interesting advice.

My situation is I'm building a studio up from scratch.

Right now I have a HD24xr. I like it but I *must* have graphical editing while tracking. I like to work FAST and honestly I've gotten spoiled by the PT rig at the studio I work at now. I can't imagine going back to sessions using the HD24 (actually I did last month and I hated it compared to PT). I had it paired with my A&H System 8 24/8 mixer and it was just too slow to work with.

I also like the integration of a PT setup. I hate taking the time bouncing HD24 tracks to a computer to mix like I do now. It seems inefficient to me after using a PT rig.

I actually like the SM7 and RE20. I use both all the time. I find them very similar, but sometimes one will like a source better than the other.

I thought about getting a 441. I want the Royers because I want to develop my own 'sound' and I've found that ribbon mics are a sound that I like a lot. For less coloration on OH's I'd use the 414's. In general I look for a lot of "character" gear that has a ton of coloration. For some reason transparent and me don't mix too well in most instances, although I do want to get another QTC-1 so I have a pair.

I was contemplating some e602's as well but I haven't used them. A lot of the stuff on my list is prejudiced by stuff I've used before, demo'd, or am curious about (of course I intend to test it out first by driving to Sweetwater which isn't too far from me).

And I intend to get what I can used... based on how quick/easy it is to find. I will have about a 3 week window to start buying stuff up after I get the facilities constructed how I want them to be.

Thanks for the advice, it keeps me thinking.
 
The ADAM's seemed easier on my ears than the Tannoys, and the low end seemed to be truer.

Just to be sure I'm 100% I'm probably going to do another RADAR configuration to see which I dig more. Based on some criticism of the anti-PT group.

Truth is there isn't any recording setup out there that I think is truly great or without flaw. Hence the reason it is so hard to decide.
 
About the Alesis HD24. I dont do any recording onto the HD24 unless im doing onlocation. I dont mean dumping it either. You can plain out use it as a front end converter and bypass the harddrives all together. Just keep them on monitor and go straight out of the Adat opticals into the Motu 2408mk3. I dont think ive ever used the HD24 for actual tracking yet. But it is still there for backup if the computer shuts down. And hey, since you already have the HD24 this saves even more money. This way you can edit with the DAW of your choice too which is another thing. Cubase SX 2.0 is the same program as Nuendo 2 without fancy surround sound features. It can be boughten for around $500 new. Actually probably less than that now that SX 3 has come out. It and Nuendo 2 can be much more efficient to work with than protools in my opinion. The HD24 as a front end though is seriously one of the best choices i have ever made. I love it. I also do alot of on location work with choirs and orchestras so it makes things even nicer. Might as well have it set up that you can fully intergrate your HD24 into your system. This is coming from a guy who has tried both. Seriously the protools system in this kind of setup isnt everything its cracked up to be. It was the best decision i ever made for myself to change.

I promise that if you starting new, spend as little money as you can on gear. Debt is not good on a studio when you are starting out. Unless youve got clients rolling in there all day long. And by everything used. Not only will it save you alot of money, but if there is a chance that you have to get out down the road, youll probably be able to sell the stuff close to what you bought it for. But with new stuff, the moment you buy it it has already depreciated way more than you would want to sell it for.

If your good at what you do then the hard part will not be to get the customers in there. That is if theres plenty of business around your area. No, the hard part is getting the clients to pay on time. It really takes a while for you to really start getting a flow of income. Youll start doing projects that people take two or three months to do. Although they got a big nice bill at the end, youve still got a few months in there to pay your own bill. Half up front is definately good but it only goes so far. Thats why keeping your bill down when you get started is a big deal.

Im just trying to make sure your economical. Thats what breaks new studios. I see studios pop up around here all the time but go down just as fast as they go up. Xstatic has tought me a few things about this too. Buying big espensive fancy gear seems like a good idea to impress the clients. But seriously, what youll find out even just a couple months down the road is that your clients hardly care what you have as long as your doing good work. Dont overspend to the least amount. This might be stuff you already know. But seriously make sure your thinkig about all this logically and not dreaming. Theres stuff you might be able to get by without for now. Think that theres a chance that if you buy a different system used now, you can sell it in a year and get the Protools system if you need. By then youll know for sure that you really need it and have the money to do so.

I had two EV RE20s and i finally got rid of one. I barely find enough use for one of them really. Theres a few things that they work on and i like alot. But i put my other mics infront priority wise most of the time. Thats $300 that could i feel i could do better with. The SM7 however is a mic i need to try out. No big rush though.

I dont understand when you say you like mics with coloration and character when you are saying you want to be versatile. I just feel a solid foundation of versatile but different mics will be much better then really colorful mics that cost alot. RE 20, MD 421, C414s all dont have alot of color to them. They are pretty basic mics in my opinion. Great mics, but really dont add a whole lot of character in my opinion. Ive never tried a 441, but im under the impression that would have much more character and coloration than a 3rd 421. And Earthworks. Arnt those meant to be accurate with little coloration? The Soundelux is probably in the middle. Its a versatile with alot of balls with the character. Havnt used the SM7 so i dont know. The only mics that i see that have true character are the royers. I love them seriously. But your spending like 2400 on mics that i bet you wont use as much as you think. Those are mics you want to get once you get an already versatile solid mic cab. One is definately enough i think to give you what you want and that leaves you money for many more mics that dont cost as much. And i would also consider getting the Royer 122 instead of the 121. Youve got good preamps but plain ribbons are still pretty hard to push without preamps that have matching Ohm ratings. Maybe your preamp selection does but im not sure. The R122 is just much easier to work with on gain. Ask Xstatic, he kind of wishes he went with the R122 instead of the R121 even though hes got the preamps to push with it. Im sure hes not disatisfied with is purchase. But it really was a smart choice for royer to slap phantom powered amplification in there. Ribbons are a whole new ball game with preamps and youll find youll be boosting the gain crazy lots then youd expect.

e604s are primarily for tom reasons. Either that or get a e602 and use two 421, and the 441 on the floor tom. But if youve got more toms on the kit than that its really nice to have those e604s around instead of stuck with the SM57s. Seriously dont plan on having the options to stick a MD421, RE 20, or an SM7 on snare in most cases. They are just too big in most cases to fit in there. 421 or a SM7 under the snare might work really well. Just make sure you get the mic right up to the head to avoid kick bleed.

Thats all i have to say but i wonna know what kind of facility your going be in. I remember running into some of your posts about the facility you found but i dont really remember.

Danny
 
The big problem I have is I like gear that is reliable and works fast. I'm kind of sick of moving files from my HD recorder to the computer for editing. I want one integrated system. After using a PT rig these last few months I really liked the all-in-one nature of the system.

I can see your point, however, about finances. I have about 40-50k to work with. My operating costs will be around 2k/month, which aren't too bad in the grand scheme of things.

Also, I'm a recording engineer now. I have some clients that will instantly move over when I'm off on my own. Granted, there aren't enough clients to make it float with just them, but at least it's something. Also I have contacts for doing commercial audio, and may be entering into a partnership with a graphics designer to form a media production deal.

The ISA 428's and 2-610's have variable mic impedence on them for the ribbon mics.

About the mics, the Earthworks are so accurate they appear to have coloration compared to most other mics. At least that's my impression. The general mics are there to be versatile, but my love is for character. My list right now doesn't have too much character to it, because I have to be sensible.
 
Alright sounds good.

But still i dont think your getting my drift with the HD recorder. Im not talking about doing any primary recording onto the HD24 hard disks. It can be done that way. No dumping will be required. Its straight through one system. Im talking about using the HD24 as a front end converter. The same way you would use an Apogee 16X converter. The sound goes in analog, gets converted to digital and passes straight through to the Motu into the computer. Think of it as a 24 channel A/D D/A Converter. Its smooth and effective, and im not the only one who does it this way. No dumping will required at all. its the exact same efficiency as protools and you have 8 more channels in and 22 more channels out. And you already have the HD24. The only times you would need to dump is if you took it on location to record something live or something. But you would have to do that for almost any system, unless you took your whole protools system to the gig. That would not be fun.

I just see this as an option you havnt quite considered or knew about. Which is why im encouraging you to consider it. As far as your mics go and everything im sure you know what you need and what you work best with. You know your situation better. Same might be for the Protools rig. Im not necessarily discouraging it but i dont feel you considered other options. Dont get caught up in a hype because its a Protools rig.

40-50K to work with. Man i could think of a mega nice system that you could build with that kind of money that would blow the protools rig away. Besides the preamps that your putting in, which are way more than i have, i feel what I did with more than half the money you are spending is way more efficient and higher quality.

Anyway, im surprised im the only one touching at all of the subject with other options. Im sure theres people who can recommend other options than what i have given. It is all very subjective to what your used to working with though and whats efficient to you and i really believe that. And the system you are planning on building is a great system and i dont think you will really be dissappointed. But last thing i want is for you to get everything and realize 6 months or so down the road that the system you got with the high paying dollars isnt cracked up to be what you thought it was. But i dont know.

Anyway, i think ive offered all my advice. feel free to ask more questions though.

Danny
 
darnold said:
40-50K to work with. Man i could think of a mega nice system that you could build with that kind of money that would blow the protools rig away. Besides the preamps that your putting in, which are way more than i have, i feel what I did with more than half the money you are spending is way more efficient and higher quality.
Click to expand...

Give me an example of how you do it.

I've considered a LOT of other systems: Mackie DXB + HDR24/96, Neotek Mixer + IZ RADAR, full fledged Nuendo system + AD16x + Powercore/UAD-1 and ultimately all systems had some weak links. The PT rig has weak links as well.

Sadly, there is not a single option for how I'd *like* to work... which would be a RADAR that had full editing and plugins.
 
Well i guess what might be better is if you give me an idea on what the flaws are in each system you have considered. I guess this is why its subjective. I might not consider those things as flaws like you do. What didnt you like about the Nuendo AD16x system? I mainly just think you could do much better with a nicer mixer. The console should really be the center of your entire system. If you get a nice 20K mixer with great routing capabilities and better preamps. The Control 24 is probably the least favorite out of the Protools setup you said. If you get something a little more than a Control 24 that system might be better. It really would be a weak link in the system if you get it.

Danny
 
Actually I'm considering something that I found today which is a lot closer to how I'd rather work. Weird thing is that I may go *mixerless* and instead use some DAW controllers and preamps to an AD16x connected to a Cubase system.

I have to do some research, make some calls.

Boy, now I look indecisive. :)
 
Its better that you find what your looking for then get it and figure out you have waisted your time. Just make sure that what you are getting is what you need.

Danny
 
Here are my top 3 votes. Based on Sound Quality.


1. Neotek console, Radar recorder:)

2. Neotek console, Radar recorder:)

3. Neotek console, Radar recorder:D
 
xstatic said:
1. Neotek console, Radar recorder:)
Click to expand...

Sadly this is a fairly slow way to work, or very expensive depending on if you are mixing 'in the box' afterwards OR using primarily hardware effects thru inserts/busses (i.e. old school).
 
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