Experimenting with Mid-side miking ...

[K-dub]

Above is the M-S version of the tune.

This is an unplugged versions of previously released work ... I'm planning on doing some work w/ my son while he's home and I'm testing out the process in advance.

If interested, the full production version can be found here.

Just sharing my explorations -- the m-s technique really does make for a much bigger guitar sound.



Above is straight stereo mic version ... as mentioned below -- for comparison purpose.





Lastly ... a single mic at 12th fret.


Which one sounds the most "natural" in the setting of the performance to the ear?

 

[ido1957]

The guitar seems to lean a little to the right. Other than that I did notice that it had a nice stereo effect and obviously fuller than a single mic would ever give you. Cool - I like it....

 

[guitar zero]

Kevin,

We use mid side a good bit. It gives a nice full, live sounding guitar. The nature of mid side guitar will always make it lean one way or the other since one side has x+y and the other x-y. You do have to be really careful to get the mid and side mic tracks phase aligned perfectly before duplicating and phase inverting the side track. It sounds as though you may have a phase issue with these guitars. Not sure, but it sounds a little bit phasy in places. You probably already knew this, but just thought I would mention it just in case.

 

[K-dub]

It's got a different "sound" to it, for certain ... and the sound does lean a little ... where you notice the low end a bit more than the upper. I'm not sure I'm quite in love with it, but it's been fun experimenting with various configurations.

The was a Rode NT2a set to the figure 8 pattern with the null set pointed dead ahead and the 8 spread catching left and right. The "center" mic was an AT4050 in cardiod mode.

I'd tried the reverse yesterday -- doing the 4050 in figure 8 and the NT2a in cardiod -- and the same sort of lean occurred to the sound. I also tried a stereo matched set of the MXL 603 in the 90 degree position about 12th fret ... but it was very bright.

Later in the day today I toyed w/ a SDC (MXL 603) pointed at 12th thread and a Karma Ribbon mic pointed at the bridge. So far, that's produced the best sound yet.

 

[Bristol Posse]

I've been messing a lot with M/S recording and I love it for acoustic guitar and as a room mic for guitar cabs when I only want a single guitar playing

You really get the sense of being in the room with the guitar

There can be a lean because it is after all a stereo micing technique. If you set up very slightly to the left of the guitar you get a slight left lean and so on. It's not really a problem so long as you are aware of this when you set up and decide how you want to position the sound. And even when favoring one side the sound will still collapse to mono without problems

 

[guitar zero]

Kevin,

To get true mid/side picture with the first configuration you listed, you have to duplicate the figure of 8 track (copy and paste to a new track so that you have two identical tracks), pan one hard left, the other hard right, and flip the phase on one of the two. The side with the flipped phase will be x-y (x being mid and y being side) and will not be as loud as the other channel. Before you do this, make sure mid and side are in phase. This will give you a true mid side sound.

 

[K-dub]

Kevin,

We use mid side a good bit. It gives a nice full, live sounding guitar. The nature of mid side guitar will always make it lean one way or the other since one side has x+y and the other x-y. You do have to be really careful to get the mid and side mic tracks phase aligned perfectly before duplicating and phase inverting the side track. It sounds as though you may have a phase issue with these guitars. Not sure, but it sounds a little bit phasy in places. You probably already knew this, but just thought I would mention it just in case.

I did know it, bud ... for I applied a phaser to it. There is no phase to it when dry ... and I did clone the L/R track, phase invert the second and check for silence up the middle (no phase) ... then panned everything out to the far wings.

I think the "lean" as noted above comes from hearing the low end of the frequency spectrum a bit more than the higher end ... which, of course, is what sort of gives the m-s "stereo" technique it's appeal -- low frequencies on one side of the sound stage, high frequencies on the other.

 

[K-dub]

I've been messing a lot with M/S recording and I love it for acoustic guitar and as a room mic for guitar cabs when I only want a single guitar playing

You really get the sense of being in the room with the guitar

There can be a lean because it is after all a stereo micing technique. If you set up very slightly to the left of the guitar you get a slight left lean and so on. It's not really a problem so long as you are aware of this when you set up and decide how you want to position the sound. And even when favoring one side the sound will still collapse to mono without problems

I worked with the array centered on the guitar, right between the sound hole and the neck connect -- and checked in mono too -- good point.

 

[K-dub]

Kevin,

To get true mid/side picture with the first configuration you listed, you have to duplicate the figure of 8 track (copy and paste to a new track so that you have two identical tracks), pan one hard left, the other hard right, and flip the phase on one of the two. The side with the flipped phase will be x-y (x being mid and y being side) and will not be as loud as the other channel. Before you do this, make sure mid and side are in phase. This will give you a true mid side sound.

An additional caution is be mindful of what sides you're flipping each m-s track l/r to --- for that's the point of the whole process.

 

[TripleM]

Yeah it's nice and wide. Didn't think the phase thingy worked well in this case. Guit sounds a little boxy and roomy for my tastes.

It's a neat version of this song though. It's one of my favorites of yours.

 

[K-dub]

Yeah it's nice and wide. Didn't think the phase thingy worked well in this case. Guit sounds a little boxy and roomy for my tastes.

It's a neat version of this song though. It's one of my favorites of yours.

Thanks Trip! I posted up the comparison above because I'm always amazed at what a difference the full production makes given where a song starts.

I tried the phase here simply because I didn't really like the m-s sound "for this song" ... so I attempted to butter it up w/ effect. As noted above, I've also worked w/ the 603 and the Karma combination and I really like the intimate feel conveyed via that configuration ... which I believe will work better.

 

[K-dub]

Note: Stereo mic file added above ...

 

[Greg_L]

I personally don't like the M-S or the stereo track. They both sound boxy and the ambience isn't very pleasing to me - especially when combined with the up front clarity of the vocal track. Roomy sounds never sound bigger to me. Quite the opposite. They sound smaller and more distant. I think there's something off in your mic setups. Neither one sounds particularly good and/or the room sounds bad. Capturing the room is fine when it's a good sounding room. I don't know if that's the case here. On acoustic guitars, I prefer the simple soundhole + 12th fret approach. I think that kind of sound would fit better with your vocal track. Experimentation is cool, but don't assume it's better just because it's something different.

 

[K-dub]

I personally don't like the M-S or the stereo track. They both sound boxy and the ambience isn't very pleasing to me - especially when combined with the up front clarity of the vocal track. Roomy sounds never sound bigger to me. Quite the opposite. They sound smaller and more distant. I think there's something off in your mic setups. Neither one sounds particularly good and/or the room sounds bad. Capturing the room is fine when it's a good sounding room. I don't know if that's the case here. On acoustic guitars, I prefer the simple soundhole + 12th fret approach. I think that kind of sound would fit better with your vocal track. Experimentation is cool, but don't assume it's better just because it's something different.

Absolutely correct, bud. Sound is good or sound is not -- doesn't matter much how you get there.

The stereo recording has a 12th fret 603 pointed at it with a ribbon mic pointed behind the soundhole. Do you go with just one mic on 12th fret?

What mic(s) do you use in your setup?

 

[Greg_L]

Absolutely correct, bud. Sound is good or sound is not -- doesn't matter much how you get there.

The stereo recording has a 12th fret 603 pointed at it with a ribbon mic pointed behind the soundhole. Do you go with just one mic on 12th fret?

What mic(s) do you use in your setup?

I've seriously recorded acoustic guitars maybe twice in the past 6 years, so my method is pretty irrelevant. I usually just use my AT2020 pointed somewhere near the neck joint and try to not move around. With a little EQ, it comes out fine. My tracking room is VERY dry. Then I just hang some reverb on it.

 

[K-dub]

I've gotten good results w/ my AT4050 doing essentially the same thing -- that's how I tracked "Mary" ... which I'd posted up here a while back. My tracking room is NOT dry ... and includes some stairwell reverb.

Like you, I'm not in love with the sound of either the M-S or the stereo config above. I saw a non-traditional approach with a SDC at 12th fret at a 45 degree angle towards the sound hole and a LDC hung behind over the shoulder of the player that I'm going to try out too.

 

[K-dub]

What I did first, though, was a single mic at 12th fret ... and I posted it up in first thread.

Does the single mic frame the performance in the most "natural" setting? Does stereo miking automatically make the sound of the performance sound "different"?