Ever sent someone home to practice?

[drewz0r]

I try to visit one of their band practices before letting them hit the studio. From there I can advise what needs to improve. I'm involved with home recording to make great music, not just money. Its no fun when the music is doomed from the start!

 

[Track Rat]

If you need the money and cant afford them to split this time, let them suck and once they leave record all their parts yourself. If they suck that bad, theyll never know

With God as my witness, I have done this.

 

[MessianicDreams]

I don't think it's the engineers authority or duty to judge performances.

i agree. unless asked, neither their performance nor the musical content is the engineer's concern.

It's all about management skills and who's the customer.

again, I agree. If i'm paying the dude to put something down, he puts it down correctly and to my satisfaction or he doesn't get paid. If i'm being paid to record someone and they're not performing well, then perhaps I'll try and hint at it if i think they're open to it.

If they're paying you to record and produce their music then unless they are asking for it, you should keep your opinion pretty much to yourself.

Well I kinda disagree there. If I'm the producer, its up to me to be the 3rd party "emotionally detached" from the project. I should be the one who decides whether a performance is good enough, whether it needs another couple of takes, or whether a session musician needs to be called. If someone isn't nailing a part, they need to know. If they need to go and practice whilst we record piano overdubs, they need to hear that.

Whether the band listens to me or not, is another matter.



Of course, this is strictly pointing out the differences (in my opinion) between engineering and producing..

 

[pipelineaudio]

With God as my witness, I have done this.

No matter how much people may hate this idea, it does give the band something to aim for.

I often hear after an album is done "man people said that was our best show ever!!!" because the band is more aware of what they are doing and what the other players are doing

At least for a first album..

 

[Daisy]

Jesus Christ.

Who do you guys think you are, anyway?

Mixerman?

 

[DavidK]

I mean, it's my name on these things:

Leave your name off. Have something IN WRITING that allows you to do this.

wouldn't it stand to reason that, as the person the band sees as most directly responsible for how their recording turns out, it's my duty to tell them if their performances don't measure up?

I make my living doing music. I do MY job to the best of MY ability. I cannot control how others do their jobs. If I attempted to, I would have quit 25 years ago.

All you can do is do your job. If you elect yourself "playing Czar", you're in for a lifetime of misery. Take the money and move on.

 

[danny.guitar]

Don't know about anyone else... but I'd be pissed if I found out some douchebag recorded over my tracks himself to make it "sound better".

If I record crap I at least want it to be my crap.

 

[pipelineaudio]

If the circumstances dictate that its gotta sound acceptable before the money actually shows up (in writing or otherwise, lets not be naieve here), you'd be surprised at the stupendous things you can do to make sure the job is done.

The chances of someone who sucked ass bad enough to have his part recorded by someone else being able to TELL that it was recorded by someone else are slim to none

 

[Elton Bear]

If they suck why try to improve them? I would probably want to hear them live/at a rehearsal before agreeing to record (not that I am in a position to record anyone else atm).
If the product sounds shit, they can hardly complain to you for not making their performance more than it was...

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If some hack band comes along and says, "we want to sound like (their favorite signed band here)", if they don't sound like them to begin with, I won't take the job. This means being able to hear them first, of course.

If previewing them is not an option, then I let them know in no uncertain terms before-hand that there is only so much I can do and am willing to do for the price. Drumagogging one or two snare hits to fix an otherwise perfect take is fine; sample-replacing an entire instrument track because the player is a wanker is not something I'll do unless they can pay for it; in which case I'll recommend bringing in a session musician and not a computer.

9 times out of 10 their egos will get in the way of that suggestion, of course; if they didn't have massive egos to begin with, they wouldn't be trying to record their wanking to begin with until they actually learned how to play. And, if they were really good, they wouldn't be interested in sounding like (band name here) unless they were actually a tribute band.

So, while I might not send them home in quite the way steve puts it, I will set expectations from the outset, and let them know that I can't turn punkins into crystal carriages and mice into white stallions, even if the band's name is Cinderella . And that the decision is theirs as to the level of professionalism and musicianship they want on their recording; if they want more than they can deliver, my options are limited.

G.

 

[Daisy]

Why do you guys even care how good or bad the band is?

Most of you probably aren't any better recording engineers than they are musicians.

Get over it already.

SteveH wants to send people home because they can't play guitar well enough. Maybe the band should refuse to work with him until he can figure out how to compress and limit drums without having to start a thread on a hack home recording board. And maybe someone else's clients shouldn't be working with him if drumagog is too complicated for him to wrap his head around ... or if he doesn't care enough to listen to what kind of sound they want to emulate without throwing a hissy fit. Or if they -- heaven forbid -- want to play their own instruments, rather than having yet another hack engineer secretly replace their tracks because he thinks he can do them better.

Some people really need to get over themselves.



Smile!

 

[pipelineaudio]

And some people need to get into the real world

When the label, or more likely today, the parents, say: "Get this record done"

You get this record done

One way or another

 

[Dani Pace]

While I have never "sent anyone home to practice," I have suggested it. And I have told a few people to work out the arraingement before I hit the record button. It's not my job to tell anyone what or how to play, it is my job to make the recording process go as smoothly as possible. Poorly trained or inexperienced musicians can be a pain in the ass to work with, I try to help them understand how recording works. It took me a while to learn (the little bit I know) so I can't expect a bunch of inexperienced people to fully be ready. I try to get them to understand they will only get results as good as the effort they put into the project, if that's not good enough, they need to record with someone else. I know my limits, i just wish more musicians knew their's.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

When the band theselves has no idea how bad they are, they are never going to be happy with the results; they are unhappy customers just waiting to happen. Wanker bands are not good business. And when you get a reputation dealing with wankers, it's hard to dig out of that hole.

And, of course, we're talking indie clients here. Someone sent by a label is a different story. If the label is solid, I'll advocate sucking the label's dick if that gets them to send you more clients, and that's what you actually want. But how many times will a label look your way if you have put out nothing but wank indie product by kids who have no business inflicting their recordings on innocent bystanders?

G.

 

[Daisy]

How many "wanker" bands are even going to garnish enough attention to the point where anyone would ever even know you've worked with them in the fist place? How do you develop a "reputation" when the fruits of that afternoon's labor amount to little more than a few disks handed out to some kid's girlfriend or a few hits on their myspace page?

Are girlfriends and moms everywhere suddenly going to start spreading word on the scene that you can't record their kid or boyfriend adequately? That would probably be a good thing.

Shit, it's hard enough to work with a really good artist and still have anyone take notice or even remember it two months later.

.

 

[giraffe]

I have. Given back the money and told them to go practice.

i've done this once.

i've wanted to do it much more though....

 

[acidrock]

As a crappy no talent musician myself it's amazing how many delusional musicians I run into(mostly younger).They learn their first power chord and spend the rest of their time practicing posing in front of the mirror.It doesn't help that all their little friends tell them that they're great also.
I've heard some pretty lousy CD's,a lot even worse than my music,but I didn't pay a studio to record me.

Myself I'd take the money and run.If they're unbelievably bad track one song and play them back a rough mix.

 

[Steve Henningsgard]

Why do you guys even care how good or bad the band is?

Because my name's on the CD/EP/Demo and producers/engineers are judged mostly by our previous work...

SteveH wants to send people home because they can't play guitar well enough. Maybe the band should refuse to work with him until he can figure out how to compress and limit drums without having to start a thread on a hack home recording board. And maybe someone else's clients shouldn't be working with him if drumagog is too complicated for him to wrap his head around ... or if he doesn't care enough to listen to what kind of sound they want to emulate without throwing a hissy fit.

Or maybe you should fuck yourself and stop trying to act like an expert on said "hack home recording board". I know how to use a damn compressor. If you'd read the post (which almost nobody responding actually did) you'd notice I suggested every solution to said problem from the get-go (parallel compression, 2nd compressor/limiter, turning everything else down), and was simply asking what other peoples' preferred methods were. Somehow it turned into a "steve.h doesn't know shit" fest, which is what I was trying to avoid. Those who have heard some of my work wouldn't give me such a hard time. (https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=249161)

(*EDIT: I saw you're commenting on SouthSideGlen's post, and thus removed this comment)

I've put up with your unnecessary pokes and suggestions that I'm not a very good engineer/producer for longer than strictly necessary, and now I'm done with it. All I wanted was to hear other peoples' opinions on sending bands home to practice before recording them, and somehow it turned into a "no, and you suck at being an engineer, and you'll never make it, and my mom says you suck" fest.

Eat a dick.

 

[DavidK]

Because my name's on the CD/EP/Demo and producers/engineers are judged mostly by our previous work...

Then you should get out of the biz. Seriously, I am not joking. If you actually think that you should or would be judged because the band who is PAYING you is shitty, than this biz is not going to be for you. You are not their mother, nor their morality or musical overseer. You are hired to do a job.

If a quartet hires me and 3 of them stink, then 3 of them stink. Its way beyond my control, and its really none of my business. What IS my business, literally, is to see that shiny check when I am leaving the gig. If its not there ( and it always is there) then we have a serious problem. Other than that, I do my job and go home with my check and pay my rent as a musician.


The only time I ever hear "well, my name has to be on it" as from amateurs, seriously. Why they are so concerned with their precious name I have no clue, since they dont HAVE a name to speak of. Unless you have a name to begin with, who would possibly care? You cannot go around questioning every product to see if it is up to your standards, if you do then you will die of starvation.

I'm 43. I have no idea how many gigs I have done. Thousands and thousands of thousands. Some have been with the best artists in history, some have been with the worst. I dont care. I cant, or else I wouldnt be working in music. If people have a job for me and it pays good, I take the job. It could be with a satanic lesbian polka Marching band, I dont care. Put my name on it, or dont. The people who KNOW me will say " Aaaah, Dave needed some money". Its MONEY, your reputation doesnt hang on some high school kid playing shitty on his lil demo, trust me. Nobody cares.

 

[Daisy]

I've put up with your unnecessary pokes and suggestions that I'm not a very good engineer/producer for longer than strictly necessary, and now I'm done with it. All I wanted was to hear other peoples' opinions on sending bands home to practice before recording them, and somehow it turned into a "no, and you suck at being an engineer, and you'll never make it, and my mom says you suck" fest.

Never made any comments on your abilities. Never heard your work. Doesn't concern me at all.

I'm just trying to point out that, for a guy who seems kind of sensitive about his engineering chops (and there was some defensiveness detected in your last post, for sure), you seem awfully quick to pass judgement on the level of musicianship you deem acceptable and/or worthy of your vast skills and reputation in the recording world. I think you need to keep in mind that you're also held to a standard as well.

And I hope all of you who have commented similarly ... have some awesome recording skills. Otherwise, you may be sending the wrong persons home from the session.