ethan's articles

[Ethan Winer]

FALKEN,

> translation is fine. it is more like, I'll think my mix is the shit. until I put in a real cd. <

One thing you're overlooking is that in an untreated room you can't hear what you're doing very well, so it's much more difficult to know what to change to make it better. Sure, you can easily tell that a professional mix sounds better than what you're doing, but you can't quite put your finger on what to change to make your mixes better. Now, some of this is surely experience and mixing chops, but without an accurate room you're just making things much more difficult than necessary.

> I guess I would have to see (hear) a demonstration to know what you are talking about. <

Any time you'd like to stop over for a visit, I'll be glad to show you what some well-treated rooms sound like.

--Ethan

 

[FALKEN]

Any time you'd like to stop over for a visit, I'll be glad to show you what some well-treated rooms sound like.

you dont happen to be in gainesville, florida, do you?

I dont think I would have any *specific* allergies to fibreglass or rockwool, just a general one, like many people get hay fever. if nobody has had any issues like this, then I am sure I would be fine. Ethan sells the stuff...any issues there that you know about Ethan? I was thinking that rockwool would probably be less allergenic than fibreglass? In some of the pictures on your site someone is wearing a gas-mask...do I really want this stuff in my studio???? or in a vocal booth???

 

[FALKEN]

Stand in the middle of your room and clap your hands.

Hear the echo??? That's flutter echo. You don't want that.

With treatments and diffusion it should be doable to get most any room in a house to an RT60 approaching less than half-a-second across the audio spectrum. Except maybe a tiled bathroom.

what the hell?! so any echo is "flutter" echo and must be killed? this seems ridiculous at best.

(edit - unless you mean just for the control room, and not for tracking)

and I should mention that my entire house sounds like a tiled bathroom, including the control room and the jam room.

What would you all recommend for a room that is basically a large tiled bathroom (sans toilet).

 

[dcwave]

what the hell?! so any echo is "flutter" echo and must be killed? this seems ridiculous at best.

No. Flutter echo is a resonant echo that occurs when sound reflects back and forth between two parallel, reflective surfaces. You want to deflect the flutter echo not absorb it. Absorbing too much sound in your control room will cause you to add more high end which may in turn sound to shrill on other systems. Not absorbing or diffusing enough will cause you to turn down the frequencies being resonated. Your tracking room might be treated a little differently - this will depend on your micing technique, close verse room.

 

[FALKEN]

You want to deflect the flutter echo not absorb it.

sshhh...... dont say that too loudly 'round here.




no really that is very interesting...haven't heard that one yet on any of the threads or reads, but seems to make sense.

Your tracking room might be treated a little differently - this will depend on your micing technique, close verse room

room.

on everything.

period.


..since this is probably the opposite idea from everyone who is trying to offer advice, what would you recommend?

 

[Farview]

I dont think I would have any *specific* allergies to fibreglass or rockwool, just a general one, like many people get hay fever. if nobody has had any issues like this, then I am sure I would be fine. Ethan sells the stuff...any issues there that you know about Ethan? I was thinking that rockwool would probably be less allergenic than fibreglass? In some of the pictures on your site someone is wearing a gas-mask...do I really want this stuff in my studio???? or in a vocal booth???

I bought Rigid Fiberglass from Ethan. It arrived quickly and as described. At least in my part of the country, you can't buy this stuff unless you are a contractor. Owens Corning wouldn't even talk to me once they found out that I wasn't a contractor. Ethan performed the valuable service of making this stuff available.

The face masks are a good idea when you are cutting this stuff. Just the same way you want to wear a mask when you are putting up drywall. Once everything is in place, there isn't any problem.

I'm not a doctor but if we assume that fiberglass is actually made out of glass fibers, I don't think they would cause allergies. If you get the fibers up your nose, it would be an irritant.

 

[FALKEN]

and no problems yet??? sorry to be so annoying but this is a serious issue for me and I would hate to spend $500 or more and then have to get rid of it.

 

[Farview]

I used Ethans plans for bass traps. The ones that use /14 inch plywood on the face. The rigid is inside the box, which has to be air tight for it to work. If anything is getting in or out of it, it would mean I didn't build it right and it isn't working.

As far as the masks go, you should wear a mask when you are building almost anything. You don't wan't to breath sawdust, drywall dust, dirt, etc..., so you wear a mask while you are building. Once everything is cleaned up, you are all good. I'm sure your house was made out of wood, drywall and fiberglass insulation. While they were building your house, you may have wanted to wear a mask, but I doubt you do now. It will be the same situation.

 

[dcwave]

room.

on everything.

period.


..since this is probably the opposite idea from everyone who is trying to offer advice, what would you recommend?

Well.. I would want a very balanced sounding room then. Along with bass traps in corners, some broadband on the side walls I think I would want a little diffusion at one end of a room and a lot of absorption and diffusion on the other. The idea is to scatter the "ambiance" evenly so that you don't have peaks and nulls or ringing or resonating echos in the room while still having a "live" room sound.

Most home based studios need alot of broadband absorption and bass traps to even out the low end. What many people discover when adding bass traps is that the slap and flutter echo becomes more noticable; I've even seen some discussions where the buyers of various bass traps felt ripped off because the sound got worse in their room - what happened was that evening out and focusing the low end made the mid to high frequency problems more noticeable.

DISCLAIMER: YMMV.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

The idea is to scatter the "ambiance" evenly so that you don't have peaks and nulls or ringing or resonating echos in the room while still having a "live" room sound.

Ok, maybe this will work for you. I believe it will "conserve precious sound energy, while adding to the overall absorption via MORE square footage WITHOUT increasing the FACE square footage. I believe this will also add to diffusion in the room as the geometry adds more LINEAR edge CORNER LENGTH, which adds more edge to diffract around the edge. At least thats the theory. There is much debate regarding the so called "edge effect". Regardless, more edge equals more diffraction AND edge FACE AREA. At least from my understanding, this translates into more absorption without increasing the face square footage. This is all based on "Diamond Theory", or TILING concepts.
The black is wall, the red or blue is 4" 703. Color can enhance the Diamonds, by paint on the wall and or fabrics. You could even fasten these diamonds to full sheets of 1/8" masonite or ply, fasten the assembly to the wall, fur out some 2x2 strips around the perimeter of the whole assembly and cover it with fabric, thereby eliminating covering each diamond. You wouldn't get the visual effect but the absorption/diffusion. should remain as planned.
fitZ

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Here is a standard typical homestudio application of 703 panels. Look at the overall sq. footage and compare with the following pics.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Now here is a pattern using 24"x24" diagonals.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Here is one using 12"x12" diagonals. 16 from 1 sheet of 2'x4' 703.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

The point is, Diamond Theory patterns are almost limitless. Number in the BILLIONS. Make them so you can change patterns weekly
fitZ

 

[FALKEN]

okay.

for the last few days I have done nothing but read up on this shit. it is good that i have an understanding girlfriend (and dog). I guess I only really have one question about everything I read...

WHAT THE FUCK!?






oh. maybe one more question..






WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!







ok. got that out of the system.

do you want to put absorbers near your monitors or diffusers?

 

[FALKEN]

holy shit when did i become a dedicated member? and who the fuck took away my only rep point?

 

[apl]

When you hit 250 posts.

So are you mad at the people trying to help, or are you having trouble understanding?

You want some absorption oriented to prevent direct reflections from your monitors.

 

[FALKEN]

neither.

I am grateful for everyone who tries to help.

I have just realized after reading a lot that there are some out there who say put diffusers near the monitors to scatter the early reflections; and some say to absorb them. the majority of people on this site say to absorb them. and there is much much less written here on building diffusers than on absorbers.

I can only assume that some sites show me pictures of diffusers and others show absorbing near the monitors because one method is more current than the other, more out of date. not sure what is what is what.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

have just realized after reading a lot that there are some out there who say put diffusers near the monitors to scatter the early reflections; and some say to absorb them. the majority of people on this site say to absorb them. and there is much much less written here on building diffusers than on absorbers.

Welcome to the world of studio design I've yet to understand this myself. Its as if there is NO real underlying principle by which ALL designers use, because I think its all a matter of ........well, THEY CAN"T FIGURE OUT WHICH COMES FIRST, the wagon or the cart.
fitZ

 

[FALKEN]

yes rick i have read your rants as part of my research. very humorous stuff. which did you end up doing? I dont have 5 years to spend on this!!!