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BigHighLonesome said:
Building a solid home studio should not be like painting a 747 with a Q-Tip.
For sure I love the articles, and I have read most of them. Not taking anything away from the more experienced crowd here, I just want to remind the newbies that you dont have to go the distance with all the minute details to get a decent sounding room. I have gone a little too far in my construction though...

Just get as much mass -- air -- mass as you can in there.

Mass-air-mass has to do with effectively isolating the studio and has nothing to do with its acoustics.
 
Just get as much mass -- air -- mass as you can in there.


















Its knowing where that counts. :D
 

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LOL, one must be able to laugh at oneself .. Nice doodle rick, I bet you have been waiting a while to use that one. Now you got you rib kick in, I hope you feel better, Grumpy man.

Mass-air-mass has to do with effectively isolating the studio and has nothing to do with its acoustics.

This is where I disagree, but thats just me. It may not have everything to do with acoustics, but it does play a role in how your rooms going to sound and your starting point before working out abnormalities of the room. At least, thats what I am hearing with my own two ears.

I guess my point is that I did one db check with one layer of drywall on the oustide wall of the live room, and then one with 2 layers.

For the money.. it was a f&&@* waste of time. You can barely hear the difference, if any. So in another room I just added more mass inbetween the wall (2*6 framing) and its exactly the same db transfer as the double thick sheet rock (2*6 framing ). Sorry for my lack of technical explanation, I just go by my ears, and software. All this "you have to have this and that in order for your room to be right, and if you mess up one square inch your room is compromised", is just a load of steamy HS.

Quite a few studio builders and "wanna-be's" would like you to believe that only a pro can build a studio and unless you spend ten's of thousands of dollars, its not going to be done right... what a croc that is turning out to be. Rather that or I am a pretty good studio builder already, but I highly doubt it.
 
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As I build up my home studio and do acoustic tests, I am starting to notice that much of this grandular detail surrounding the sound acoustic treatment of a room is just a load of BS.
As you seem to feel that the more esoteric aspects of control room acoustics are bullshit, maybe you should present your hypothesis here for professional review and comment. I'm sure they would.

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewforum.php?f=1

That still doesn't tell me what you are using them to tell you. Who knows, maybe you can hear 2f1 - f2. I can't.

No shit, ya' grumpy bastard Sorry for russling feathers, but there's a variety of ways to do research when insulating and building a room.

Let me correct you, its actually "grumpy ole fart". Bastard is as highly subjective and inaccurate as your ears. Really though, you didn't russle my feathers. I'm grown accustomed to my affliction as well as home studio builders.
However, your opinion is duly noted, and while possibly shared by others, is niether profound or enlightening. As to listening while building, granted, you may hear things that tell you something. I never said they wouldn't. It's WHAT they tell you that may be lacking. In the case of doubling mass with little improvement, I doubt if your ears can tell you why. Although, this may help you discover it.
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1488

Brian Daytons lab results of many tests can be found with a simple search on the studiotips bbs. I suggest reading his insight as it is truly informative in regards to the nature of this subject among others.


LOL, one must be able to laugh at oneself ..
Nice doodle rick, I bet you have been waiting a while to use that one. Now you got you rib kick in, I hope you feel better, Grumpy man.
True, I was laughing at my own thought when this concept came to my attention. However, the doodle was a consequence of your remark, so I drew
it to illlustrate. Humor was the intent, and I'm pleased it succeeded. As to my grumpy attitude, it depends on whether I've had my coffee or not. Actully, I'm quite happy and pleasant to be around most of the time.

I tried to share something with you that I felt was of value , regardless if it appears worthless to you.
fitZ
 
BigHighLonesome said:
LOL, one must be able to laugh at oneself .. Nice doodle rick, I bet you have been waiting a while to use that one. Now you got you rib kick in, I hope you feel better, Grumpy man.



This is where I disagree, but thats just me. It may not have everything to do with acoustics, but it does play a role in how your rooms going to sound and your starting point before working out abnormalities of the room. At least, thats what I am hearing with my own two ears.

I guess my point is that I did one db check with one layer of drywall on the oustide wall of the live room, and then one with 2 layers.

For the money.. it was a f&&@* waste of time. You can barely hear the difference, if any. So in another room I just added more mass inbetween the wall (2*6 framing) and its exactly the same db transfer as the double thick sheet rock (2*6 framing ). Sorry for my lack of technical explanation, I just go by my ears, and software. All this "you have to have this and that in order for your room to be right, and if you mess up one square inch your room is compromised", is just a load of steamy HS.

Quite a few studio builders and "wanna-be's" would like you to believe that only a pro can build a studio and unless you spend ten's of thousands of dollars, its not going to be done right... what a croc that is turning out to be. Rather that or I am a pretty good studio builder already, but I highly doubt it.
This would be a useful rant if the thread was discussing the transmission of sound through a wall. But since the discussion is room modes and flutter echoes, it isn't very useful.

Anyway, here is a test for everyone who doesn't think any of this makes a difference, all you need for test equipment is your ears and your monitor setup:
1.Play a 60Hz sine wave through your monitors at a moderate volume.

2. Walk around the room, stand in a corner, sit in a chair, stand on a chair.

Is the tone the same volume everywhere in the room? Is it louder in some places than it is in others? Try it with an 80Hz sine wav. Do the build ups and cancelations happen in the same places in the room as with the 60Hz signal?

If the room is not properly treated, how do you know that you are sitting in a good spot to hear everything the way it is supposed to be heard?
 
RICK FITZPATRICK said:
I tried to share something with you that I felt was of value , regardless if it appears worthless to you.
fitZ

The only thing worthless on this site is negativity.

Much thanks to everyone who gets involved and at least tries to help or contribute!!!!!

.....

I guess what I was trying to say is that my recordings already sound pretty good without treatment. Although I would not say that they are *there* yet. And I guess I was expecting mastering to get them *there*. And I think after 8 years and thousands of dollars they should be *there*.

I love the natural ambient sound. This is a personal taste. But now that it has been pointed out to me, I am starting to hear the acoustically treated/dampened room sound on many many recordings. especially on drums. in comparison to most commercially available recordings, my drums are swimming in room sound.

So I am considering the acoustic treatment. That was the reason for this post. not to knock it; I haven't tried it!!!!

I guess I was just looking for people to say either:

-yeah, I tried it. spent 500 bucks and a weekend, and nothing changed. what a buch of horseshit. or

-yeah, I tried it. best investment I ever made.

maybe it should have been a poll. whatever.


I have one more concern:

Does rigid fiberglass or mineral rockwool cause allergy-related breating problems? I have pretty bad allergies and would not want something like a cat in my studio.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!


...oh yeah; i'll try that sinewave thing today!
 
FALKEN said:
The only thing worthless on this site is negativity.

Much thanks to everyone who gets involved and at least tries to help or contribute!!!!!

Agreed......... you have a pretty good group of people here offering assistance.

I guess what I was trying to say is that my recordings already sound pretty good without treatment. Although I would not say that they are *there* yet. And I guess I was expecting mastering to get them *there*. And I think after 8 years and thousands of dollars they should be *there*.

Well let's get down to it then - what exactly is it that isn't there? One of the reasons that treatment is important is that it helps you hear exactly what's coming out of your speakers....... and not whatever frequencies might be being effected by the room itself.

So what exactly doesn't translate well for you. Is this an issue of you taking something you mixed and thought sounded great in the room not sounding the same when you listen to it somewhere else?

If that's the case - then you have to figure out what's being effected in the music and deal with it - OR - you have to learn what your room does - and mix accordingly.

BUT - in order for anyone here to offer you assistance - you have to explain exactly what the problem really is.

I love the natural ambient sound. This is a personal taste. But now that it has been pointed out to me, I am starting to hear the acoustically treated/dampened room sound on many many recordings. especially on drums. in comparison to most commercially available recordings, my drums are swimming in room sound.

So I am considering the acoustic treatment. That was the reason for this post. not to knock it; I haven't tried it!!!!

OK - but you certainly didn't present it that way.........

I guess I was just looking for people to say either:

-yeah, I tried it. spent 500 bucks and a weekend, and nothing changed. what a buch of horseshit. or

-yeah, I tried it. best investment I ever made.

I have never heard anyone who treated their room come back to say it sucked compared to what it was.

I have seen hundreds of people let us know that it amazed them how much different it was once they finished the treatments in their rooms - and how much better the music translated when listened to on systems outside their rooms.

I have one more concern:

Does rigid fiberglass or mineral rockwool cause allergy-related breating problems? I have pretty bad allergies and would not want something like a cat in my studio.

Well this might be a problem for you.

Your best bet would be to get some samples of these products - take them to your doctor - and have him/her perform an allergy test on you before you actually try to use any of them.

It's possible that they could cause a problem for you - and if the answer is yes - then there are other avenues you can persue.

Rod
 
BigHighLonesome said:
I guess my point is that I did one db check with one layer of drywall on the oustide wall of the live room, and then one with 2 layers.

For the money.. it was a f&&@* waste of time. You can barely hear the difference, if any.

Perhaps that might have something to do with the fact that the assembly was never finished.

I have never seen any tests performed on one sided walls.... seems it would be pretty much a waste of time - I wouldn't expect much in the way of results.

Everything I've seen tested was a 2 leaf system.


So in another room I just added more mass inbetween the wall (2*6 framing) and its exactly the same db transfer as the double thick sheet rock (2*6 framing ).

You have to paint me a better picture - what do you mean by "in between the wall".

DO you mean you have 2 seperate walls - and you put sheets in the void in the middle?

All this "you have to have this and that in order for your room to be right, and if you mess up one square inch your room is compromised", is just a load of steamy HS.

Well I would have to agree that worrying about a few inches one way or another is a bit over the top.

Quite a few studio builders and "wanna-be's" would like you to believe that only a pro can build a studio and unless you spend ten's of thousands of dollars, its not going to be done right... what a croc that is turning out to be. Rather that or I am a pretty good studio builder already, but I highly doubt it.

Well here I can comment - I am a pro in the industry - and I've guided quite a few non-pros through studio construction.

I'll let you in on a secret - anyone with a little bit of talent can get it done right - but they had better be pretty carefull with details.

I have seen professionals in the industry that can't build an isolation wall properly.

The vast majority of isolating walls between guestrooms in hotels (for example) never acheive anywhere near the wall's tested capacity for isolation just because of sloppy construction techniques on the part of the contractor's workers.

BTW - when you tested your walls - how exactly had you constructed them? I would be interested in knowing that.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
Farview said:
Anyway, here is a test for everyone who doesn't think any of this makes a difference, all you need for test equipment is your ears and your monitor setup:
1.Play a 60Hz sine wave through your monitors at a moderate volume.

2. Walk around the room, stand in a corner, sit in a chair, stand on a chair.

Is the tone the same volume everywhere in the room? Is it louder in some places than it is in others? Try it with an 80Hz sine wav. Do the build ups and cancelations happen in the same places in the room as with the 60Hz signal?

If the room is not properly treated, how do you know that you are sitting in a good spot to hear everything the way it is supposed to be heard?


ok. I tried this. Yes, different tones were different volumes at different places in the room. How do I know that I am sitting in a good spot to hear everything? Because I have my monitors set up correctly. In my monitoring position, everything sounded the way it should, at least the way I think it should. I tried a variety of frequencies across the spectrum, and the volume gradually increased with frequency, peaking around 2.5 khz, and then dropped off as i got to the high end. I guess this is from my own hearing? In that increase/decrease progression, none of the tones seemed to be out of place, volume wise.


I should mention that for monitor stands, I got a couple of cheap bookshelves that are the exact height to put my monitors on to keep them level for mixing. so, the bookshelves are loaded with stuff, and in the corners, and my desk is a few feet away from the wall. I think the monitors are about 6' apart.
 
FALKEN said:
How do I know that I am sitting in a good spot to hear everything? Because I have my monitors set up correctly. In my monitoring position, everything sounded the way it should, at least the way I think it should.

Falken,

Ok - so if you are convinced your room isn't a problem - and your speaker placement is correct - and you're hearing what you're supposed to hear...... what exactly is the problem?

You tell us something is wrong - but not what the something is - how can anyone offer you a helping hand?

Sincerely,

Rod
 
Falken,

> How do I know that I am sitting in a good spot to hear everything? <

There is no one good spot, and that's the whole point of room treatment - it minimizes the variations by lowering the peaks and raising the nulls. Until a room is treated I guarantee that for any low frequency you play you'll be able to find a deep null somewhere. Likewise for any location you'll be able to find a low frequency that drops out completely. This is further confounded by the key of the music you're playing. :eek:

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
Falken,

> How do I know that I am sitting in a good spot to hear everything? <

There is no one good spot, and that's the whole point of room treatment - it minimizes the variations by lowering the peaks and raising the nulls. Until a room is treated I guarantee that for any low frequency you play you'll be able to find a deep null somewhere. Likewise for any location you'll be able to find a low frequency that drops out completely. This is further confounded by the key of the music you're playing. :eek:

--Ethan

I guess that would make sense for recording, but wouldn't you hear that in the monitors and move the mic somewhere else?? I just fail to see why you would want a room that is flat everywhere in the room; it seems pointless.

going back to what is "missing", I would have to say it is a degree of detail, clarity, and "up-front"-ness; basically my recordings sound like really damn good home recordings! what I want them to sound like is really creative pro recordings!

but I have already resolved that I owe it to myself to try this stuff out. I am just concerned about the allergenic properties of the rigid fiberglass. It sounds like the answer is to put it in plastic, but that would defeat the point. Will do more research.
 
here is some info from a website I found on insulating your home:

Anyone who has worked with this material will attest to the fact that working with it can make your skin itch. This is because the fibers actually make small incisions in the skin. When these fibers are inhaled they can make small cuts in the sinuses or throat, causing respiratory tract irritation. Since all residential batt insulations are coated with a formaldehyde based resin, this resin is in contact with the cut, resulting in further irritation. If very many of these resin coated fibers get into the air and are inhaled, they can cause severe problems.

would this also apply to "rigid" fiberglass?
 
Seems like you tend to view this as all-or-nothing.

Fiberglass covered with muslin or similar should be fine. If you want to put plastic over it I suggest the white 3M painter's film, the stuff that comes on a roll in various widths. It's very thin so it doesn't reflect as much energy as visqueen would.

About "flat"....... that's not it. You're not trying to build an anechoic test booth. Like APL said way back when, it's about absorbtion AND resonance. You wanna kill the standing waves and flutter echo because that contributes to mushy recording, but you want some decent ambience as well.

So maybe you treat with RFSB for the lows and mids and do some diffusion for the highs. The idea is to have as NEUTRAL a space as possible.

Stand in the middle of your room and clap your hands.

Hear the echo??? That's flutter echo. You don't want that.

With treatments and diffusion it should be doable to get most any room in a house to an RT60 approaching less than half-a-second across the audio spectrum. Except maybe a tiled bathroom. :D
 
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FALKEN,

> but wouldn't you hear that in the monitors and move the mic somewhere else?? <

So how would you know where to move the microphone if you can't trust your loudspeakers?

--Ethan
 
FALKEN said:
Igoing back to what is "missing", I would have to say it is a degree of detail, clarity, and "up-front"-ness; basically my recordings sound like really damn good home recordings! what I want them to sound like is really creative pro recordings!

Do they sound differently once you're finished than before? Or do they translate well - and by this I mean do the levels of all of the instrument / vocals / etc sound the same in the room during mixdown and also when you play the product back on a different system - different room?

This is the sort of thing I would attribute to room acoustics.......... the other seems more to me like (perhaps) gear or technique........ and no I am not trying to be an idiot here - nor am I trying to belittle your gear or technique -

I just do not have a clear picture of the room problem here.......

Sincerely,

Rod
 
yeah man.

translation is fine.

it is more like, I'll think my mix is the shit. until I put in a real cd. then im like daamn. back to the drawing board.

I did try recording last night some guitars and vocals with the door wide open. I picked up some "ambience" - my girlfriend making dinner, and the dog threw in a nice shaker from his collar right at the end of the bridge - brilliant! anyways the sounds were a lot more clear and open and stable.



ethan -

I guess I would have to see (hear) a demonstration to know what you are talking about. I have not been in any "pro" studios and I think we are just coming at this from different perspectives (yours being experience and mine being insanity). I really appreciate all of your feedback.

when I get some stuff mixed down I'll post and we'll all hear exactly how I am butchering my own music!
 
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