equipment not needed

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mixmkr

mixmkr

we don't need rest!!
I just had to post this somewhere...but, it is really starting to hit me that all this "consumer oriented" equipment, from the Rode NT1 to the ART MP mic preamp, to the Behringer Virtualizer, to the Mackie VLZ preamps....etc. is not necessary to make really decent sounding finished products. I really believe that you can take itmes like a Mexican Strat, a cheap $50 EV mic, record to a decent medium, watch your noise levels, and you can get some fantastic results. It seems that since the price has come down significantly on "decent mixers", DAW, and even earlier with products supporting the ADAT rage, companies have really been sucking it out of the typical musician and making them think that if they don't have Mackie preamps, a Sound Room Octavia mic, and some Event 20 20's, their music is going to really stink in the quality dept. Hogwash!! Funny..15 years ago, when none of this "Musicians Friend" stuff existed, recordings still rocked in home project studios. So much emphasis has been put on such minor details as the differences between a Marshall MXL2001 and an AKG3000, that the idea of *milking* the most out of your equipment, using your ears, and some *creative* recording techniques and experimentation has just floated on down the stream. YES, IN HIGH END STUDIOS, ATTENTION TO THESE DETAILS HAS CERTAINLY PROVED ITSELF TO BE WORTHY. But, people think that now that they can record at 24/96 in their bedroom, they can hear the intricacies that a top notch experienced engineer would notice...not to mention that people think they can hear that stuff thru a pair of NS10's..."hey..all the big studios have them..and so do I...and my ears are just as good" "Oh wait....get some REALLY good Mackie 824's and *secrets of audio* will be revealed." And yes...I understand that yes..the equipment is better and cheaper nowadays...for sure, you can get a 2" multitrack for less than the price of a used car, blah, blah, blah....but I have NEVER had someone say...."Hey, your demos are too hissy"...or "the EQ is strange on your tapes"....even with stuff recorded on a A3340S "dinosaur". People need to not be brainwashed into this gear slut age and concentrate more on their chops, writing and be willing to experiment. Long live natural reverb chambers!!

oh yeah...I understand about trying to sound like the "big boys" at home now...but my point...don't let equipment get in the way...(even though it is fun to talk about..I admit! ;-)
 
phew...that felt good....

and hey...my $100 Nady works just fine for micing my guitar amp in the other end of the house while I sit in front of my 4311's without the toil of stupid cable runs.
 
You make some good points but I think having good gear CAN make you sound better. Trade that Mexican Strat for a good used Les Paul and you WILL hear a difference. You do need a certain level of quality gear, especially monitors. I know people can get a little gear obsessed around here. I sat for hours last night looking at the new musical instrument catalogs I got, dreaming about what I could do " if only I had THIS ". I also spent hours laying down guitar tracks and a few synth solos on my latest creation. When I did a rough ( and I mean real rough ) mix I marveled at how good it sounded and how I couldn't have done this with the gear I had before I went on my latest spending spree. Don't bemoan the fact that we have these incredible tools available to us...use them...buy them...enjoy them. I love living during a technological revolution.
 
oh..I agree...good gear can make you sound better. Or more so, it is EASIER to sound better and QUICKER. Infact I'm fortunate to have some really fine gear too. Some nice Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, Guild guitars...etc. But...I can get some of my cheesier guitars to sound really good thru my Pod...or even just thru a Rat distortion, etc. and plugged in direct. I also have some decent keys like a Roland xp80...but I also have a cheezy Yamaha kiddie keyboard that can sound terrific in a mix too. I have also stuck some old EV *road* mics up on drums, and they came out great (albeit, I had a 57 on the snare). My point is if it sounds good coming out of the speakers, hey...who cares how it got there...and I'm saying that sometimes the more attention paid to that, rather than the little sonic differences between some of these new age condensor mics is what is more important. BUT...let me state, yes I do understand that all these little "improvements" can and DO add up and make a major difference, and your not PROBABLY going to get a AAA drum sound with sub$100 mics, but you can get REALLY CLOSE.

It is like a sailboat race. Teams can spend thousands of dollars (or more, easily) on making their boat go faster. But one good strategic tack by the underdog team can diminish all the technology in one whooooosh. (a little luck never hurts either ;-)
 
I have recorded guitar (distortion and clean) through these cheap cheap mic's you get with computers, strait into the computer with the software Goldwave, and the sound was99% perfect. Interesting isn't it?
 
Mixmkr,
Thanks for the wake up call. It really brought me back down to earth (however briefly).I just realized I've been spending several hours a day at his site and all the links I find here, and listing all the new equipment I now realize I can no longer record without, till I wake up in the morning with strange words running through my head like, EMU, MOTU,S/PDIF, TOSLINK etc. and in the meantime I haven't recorded one thing!
It's incredibly easy to get sucked into such a mentallity that it's never enough.
It is fun to dream however, and its fun just to know how the "pros" do it.

Twist
 
Who knows if 1 will ever be a pro but striving to produce the best recording 1 can should be the ultimate goal. One's own techniques may sound great on ones own equipment,but if you trying to produce the same results as say George Massenburg, Bill Park Or the incomparable Sonusman, certain levels of high end gear should be a must. But for us homewrekkers and project studios (or even basement studios)I do believe that there is no need for most of that stuff.
Therefore I do agree with you to a certain extent mxmkr that a lot of these goodies are actually not needed to produce a fine mix. Unfortunately,I am a badly addicted "GEAR JUNKY",and some of those items you mentioned in the 1st post I own and more than likely will continue to feed my "HABIT" as long as my money holds out. Just don't tell the wife! :)



[Edited by MISTERQCUE on 08-24-2000 at 12:51]
 
well...I gotta admit, there's nothing but catalogs like American Musical Supply, Musicians Friend, Sweetripoff, etc in a stack on the back of my toilet. Makes for quick easy reading, and it doesn't matter what page you start reading on! My wife is great, btw...she's the graphics side of the team for all the CD labels, flyers, etc. I get an Alesis Wedge, she gets RAM or a new Fonts program....works for me.
 
I agree with what you're saying about how ppl should pay more attention to improving their musical skills instead of improving their gear list, but I don't agree with things you said like "little sonic differences" between mics and things like that.

For things like vocals and acoustic guitars, a good mic can make all difference in the quality of the recorded tracks. And a good pair of monitors is necessary for decent mixing/EQing.

I do admit that I myself have become a little gear-obsessed. I can't see the word "Event" without thinking about a pair of monitors I wish I had.

But I have to say that, even though it's not everything, GEAR DOES MATTER.
 
i think this is the thing that is so frustrating yet so intriguing about recording music. I bet the thought that "hmm is this as good as i can get it? even though it sounds good, am i still doing it right? will something come back to haunt me in the end?" runs through EVERYONE's head while they are recording. Even though something sounds good, you still dont think its enough, and thats when all of this equipment hype comes into play. I mean, think of how easy it is to get brainwashed. Top producers in top studios make albums that blow you away. So you are instantly hindered towards thinking that the ONLY way to get these incredible sounding works is to GET the gear they have and try to mimic the exact enviornment that the real deal studio made. In my opinion, i think that the difference between the top and our home studio is fine detail. I think the fact that there is a "team" involved in a big studio, where many people work on the same project, incorperate new ideas, and experts from each field are brought in to do a specific job on the album, give it that WOW sound. However, i wouldnt doubt that if you stuck these big time dudes in a fairly decent home studio, and told them to make the same album with the same band, it would come out REAL close. I also wouldnt doubt that some of the pros out there use the same basic techniques we think are far too simple to use, on regular everyday gear. Sound is sound, the mathematical properties of it will never change. Equipment is one thing, but the person operating the eqiupment is also just as important. Its a whole other art form weve all pretty much concluded. So i guess all in all, you just have to keep expereimenting, and accept in your mind that your sound is never going to be "good" enough for you, but also realize that we are improving even though we dont realize it. Peace all.
 
Okay, so we record a song on a Tascam 4-track analog recorder with dynamic mics, an ART Tube MP, Hosa cables, and mix everything down on the ole' bookshelf stereo system on cassette tape.

Now we record the exact same song on an Akai DPS-16 in 24 bit/96kHz with a Mindprint Envoice, Nueman mics, Monster cables, and mix it all down on Event 20/20's to a Tascam CDRW 5000.

Both were performed equally as well, but the only difference is the above mentioned equipment.

Which recording is going to get radio airplay?
Which recording is less likely to immediately get tossed into the garbage by a record label?
Which recording will make all your friends go "ooooh, WOW!?"
Which recording will last a lifetime without any sound degradation whatsoever?
Which recording will keep the engineer who masters it from tearing his hair out?

Sorry... but equipment DOES matter!
 
skyline...I think you have the idea. Good post.

buck...I think you need to go back and re-read the first post I made. remember, I said "watch your noise levels".
And...really...of course if you mix down on your dad's Sansui bookshelf speakers onto a casette...gimme a break..
And getting down to the nitty gritty...we all know equipment does matter, but the sonic differences between a sm58 and a lousy Mxl2001 marshall mic in a GOOD home recording aren't going to show up if ATTENTION WAS PAID TO DETAIL. Sure, it may sound different to the TRAINED ear, but it won't necessarily be better...or worse...just different.
You did however prove my point with your second choice recording setup..,..the Akai DSP, Event 20 20 monitors, and even the Nueman mics (however I give the mics pro status). all home catalog stuff.,,,in the budget of many teenagers, and certainly many, many home recordists...but not a SSL,Westlakes, and a U47. Switch the Akai to a Roland unit, the Events to some Monitor 2's...basically same setup..no sonic differences to make any differences. But...you seem to think those will get the airplay, wow the friends...etc. cheap equipment, gets the job done, AGAIN. case closed.

Oh yeah..I have some tape archives that
are much older than any CD on the planet..
but I suppose in another 50 years we'll know which lasts longer. however...I wont make any bets ha!!
 
Mixmkr,
I completely agree with what you are saying. If kind of funny how musicians wont find the best gear in catalogs, but the gear they do find in catalogs claims to be the best. Even though good gear definitely yields awesome possibilites and quality, it is still a very big advertising scheme. And always ill hold in my opinion, a good set of ears is better then any piece of equipment known to man.

Cool thread.
Later all,
Luke
 
I think it's foolish to spend too much money on home gear unless your recording room is acousticly "perfect" and your wiring is optimized for recording, the very things a professional studio has going for them. Just building a vocal booth is way out of my budget. In fact, I'm probably one of the least gear-obsessed around...I'm still using a Yamaha 12-bit reverb that I bought in 1987 as my main 'verb.
Recording IS just a means to an end. The melody, the chords, the passion and sweat, the muse. That's what drives most of us. The gear is just a distraction along the road to creating music we our proud of.
I have some cassettes around, archives of my 1980's work and they're not too bad. Mono recordings made on a Tascam 4-track, headphones for monitoring, guitars recorded with a horrible dynamic mic or a Rockman X-100(yuck), decent piano. The sound quality isn't too shabby but my songwriting left a lot to be desired. I wonder in 20 years when I listen back to what I am recording today what I will think. I will probably complain that I only had 16 tracks of 20-bit audio to work with.
 
mixmkr...
I do understand your point, but I have NEVER made a recording on my Tascam 424 that did'nt have a slight bit of tape hiss when I recorded more than one single track.
If I just had one track of acoustic guitar, then it would sound great. But, as soon as you get into multiple tracks, noise is inevitable.
Of course, noise can come from all sorts of places... cheap cables, bad ground on your guitar, effects, etc. etc. etc. Keeping those noise levels down IS the key to good recordings... that's a given.
Subtle nuances and exceptional clarity from higher quality equipment DOES make your recordings the best they can be, though.
If you are making recordings for the family and friends, then mediocre equipment is most definitely the way to go. And you're right about the slight differences in *some* equipment. Sometimes it really isn't worth it to spend the extra dough.
But, if you are making a serious effort to get airplay on FM radio, as many of us here are... then you have to drop at least a few thousand dollars into some quality stuff. You also must re-record each track until it's played (or sung) as close to perfection as you can get it, and spend lots of time mixing and remixing until it's as good as it gets.
Mastering is another phase that is immensely important to your final product. DO NOT take that decision lightly!
The engineer that you choose to do your mastering, and the amount of effort he puts into it, can make or break all of your hard work.
I've converted to the "spend your money once" school of thought, since I, like many here, have found that recordings sound much better when they are done on top-notch equipment.
Although, my partner and I did make some nice recordings on a 16-bit Korg D8 on our first CD, you can check out the results here if you like...

http://go.to/MacBrothers

Buck
 
Someone once asked Hemmingway "I want to be a writer, what should I do?"
He turned to them and said "write."
We (and I include myself) spend so much of our brainspace and time contemplating and discussing the best pencil to use to write with I think that we forget that the answers we seek often lie in the writing.
However
The other side of ole' Earnie's maddeningly simple answer is the paradigm we are faced with. The sound of my guitar must be captured, travel through yards and yards of cables, pass through a plethora of sound-shaping devices, be subjected to atleast one (often several) conversions of encoding formats, get pressed onto a flat, round shiny disk AND STILL make someone miles away in their car shout "YEAH" and turn their CD player up.
I guess my point is that every step in that long path is important. This is a tech oriented forum and it is so important to learn about the many tools that are avaiable to us (which one's the 'big boys' use)...... But they are just our tools, our pencils. If Louis Armstrong solos recorded to wax tubes can make my hair stand up, that speaks to the importance of the power of the performance and performers tone. A Daniel Lanois mix can do the same thing to me.....
The "quality" of sound that people expect to hear coming out of their stereos is higher now than ever before and at the same time what is considered a "good" sound covers a much broader spectrum.
I think I should get back to my guitar and work on the bridge some more now ......
Thanks for this amazing forum and to all of y'all for caring and sharing your knowledge......
 
hey buck...I was trying to link to listen to some of your stuff, but got lost [;-( sorry....
Honestly after flipping thru a couple pages (which seemed to take a tad extra long to d/l) I lost the route to the Mac Bros. I'll look again later, I guess.

Anywazzz....some responses on this thread have really put a smile on my face.
 
I don't know what you're talking about- obsessed? New fangle thingies like neuman mikes and 20/20's akg 4000 , big racks and lots of keyboards just happen to look good in my basement. The hours I spend on the web looking at new gear and software, hard drives, ram, mouses, are spent for educational purposes only. And the fact that my credit cards are maxed out? Oh, that's just to keep me from going on any unnessecary spending sprees. Besides I don't think my kids really need braces anyway.
 
When I worked at my first job at a TV station, there was this "old fart" engineer who often spoke of his old radio days and bragged that all he had to do back then was set up a single RCA ribbon mic in the center of the studio and it "picked up everything". He took great pride in how he could ride gain on that big rotary fader.
When I first started recording my own demos, I didn't have the money for even TEAC gear, so I got a little reel recorder that would do sound-with-sound and I bounced from left to right to left to right laying down parts and I thought that it sounded pretty good.
Later, I got a TEAC 4-track and was amazed by how stunning it sounded compared to what I'd had to use before. The same story with the 8-track I eventually got.
The story goes on, but the one common thread is that I always tried to do the best, most professional job I could, regardless of what I was using. New gear is great IF it makes a real, audible difference in the end product; otherwise it's all in what you can do with it.
 
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