Equipment for recording rock bands

[Chicoo]

Hi everyone.

I'd like to record rock bands in some different places.
I'd like to record them with analogue equipment (including an analogue tape recorder and a mixing console) that could be easy to move (not to heavy
and not too big), and that should be as good as possible (with a warm feeling,
and with a clear mixing).
I don't have much money, but i'm sure i can find something in vintage
machines.
I have a Fostex A80 (which is easy to move) but if there are better recorders
in quality (with this easy way of transport), let me know.
I really don't know what to buy as a mixing console..

If someone could help me..
Thanks for reading me, and excuse me for my bad english.

Chicoo.

 

[Farview]

You will probably need more than 8 tracks. I've seen some 16 track recorders on ebay for well under $1000. This is do-able but a little short of what people seem to expect nowadays. A 24 track 2-inch machine will not be portable and will run thousands.

With a 16 track deck, you will want a 24 channel board. The other channels will come in handy for making submixes and fx returns. This will run you about $1000. Mackie 8 bus or Soundcraft ghost will do nicely.

You will also need a few hundred cables to hook everything up to your mic collection and your tape deck.

If you are moving this stuff you will need cases for everything.

Your question is a little general, what do you have already?

 

[Chicoo]

You will probably need more than 8 tracks. I've seen some 16 track recorders on ebay for well under $1000. This is do-able but a little short of what people seem to expect nowadays. A 24 track 2-inch machine will not be portable and will run thousands.

With a 16 track deck, you will want a 24 channel board. The other channels will come in handy for making submixes and fx returns. This will run you about $1000. Mackie 8 bus or Soundcraft ghost will do nicely.

You will also need a few hundred cables to hook everything up to your mic collection and your tape deck.

If you are moving this stuff you will need cases for everything.

Your question is a little general, what do you have already?

Thanks for your answers, Jason.
Why should i need more than 8 tracks for 2 guitars, one electric bass
drums and at least 2 voices?

I'm kind of minimalist.
The very important thing is the sound : i like when it's almost dirty.
Maybe makies are too cold? (i'm not a specialist but).
The second important thing is that everything could be easily portable
and don't take too much space.


Actually, i have only the Fostex R8 (not a A80 as i said before)
which is light and compact (8 tracks, 1/4 inch 30 cm/s).
The only problem is the cinch inputs that i dislike.

For cables, i can ask friends.

About microphones, i thought about Sennheiser MD-441 for voices
AKG D-12 for the electric bass and maybe MD-421 for guitars.
For the drums, i'd like one omnidirectional but i don't know which.

As i just said, the sound (warm and dirty) and the portable thing
are really important.
I must find some solution about this two points.

Thanks for your answers.
Chicoo.

 

[FALKEN]

you can get by with 8....

part of the minimilist approach is to create these sort of limits for yourself...having 8 tracks forces you into the minimal approach. I think Jason recommended 16 because you are looking for an upgrade, and where are you going to go from what you already have if not more tracks? If you don't want more tracks, you should stick with the unit you already have. If you really want to upgrade, maybe a 1/2" 8-track. that would be nice. but harder to carry around. but it will probably get you a "dirtier" sound. what are you mixing down to?

You will probably want a mixer with more than 8 xlr ins though...this will let you submix mics before sending them to tape (ex mix the snare mic with the overhead into 1 track, or a bass amp mic with the direct signal).

your mic choices seem okay. for an omni I would look at the ev635a. it sounds real gritty on cymbals. for bass, the D12 might be a bit extravagant. I have gotten good sounds with both the sm58 and the md421 on bass. I did just pick up a D12e for bass drum, I can't wait to try it out.

the other piece of gear I would recommend (even though I will probably get negative rep points) is the presonus bluetube. you can crank it and get some real grit out of it.

I would like to hear your stuff..it sounds like we are both going for a similar sound. I am using a Fostex E-16, and plan on picking up a 1272 clone in the very near future..

edit - you can add more grit during mixdown with a compressor...
you can also use aux sends and send your tracks out to something...say the bluetube, or an amp, and bring it back into the returns for some more lo-fi goodness. of course getting it at the source is best.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Thanks for your answers, Jason.
Why should i need more than 8 tracks for 2 guitars, one electric bass
drums and at least 2 voices?

I'm kind of minimalist.
The very important thing is the sound : i like when it's almost dirty.
Maybe makies are too cold? (i'm not a specialist but).
The second important thing is that everything could be easily portable
and don't take too much space.


Actually, i have only the Fostex R8 (not a A80 as i said before)
which is light and compact (8 tracks, 1/4 inch 30 cm/s).
The only problem is the cinch inputs that i dislike.

For cables, i can ask friends.

About microphones, i thought about Sennheiser MD-441 for voices
AKG D-12 for the electric bass and maybe MD-421 for guitars.
For the drums, i'd like one omnidirectional but i don't know which.

As i just said, the sound (warm and dirty) and the portable thing
are really important.
I must find some solution about this two points.

Thanks for your answers.
Chicoo.

Jason mages some excellent points, none of which I disagree with. But if you're looking for guerilla recording live it *can* indeed be done with 8 tracks on a budget in an extremely portable form factor with suprisingly decent quality if you're willing to do some submixing on the fly.

I have done this fairly regularly for about 5 years now using a single 13-U rack on wheels with a Mackie 1604VLZ mixer, an ADAT XT and some common live use microphones. Substitute your 1/4" for the ADAT and you could do the same thing. Attached is a basic schematic diagram of how I lay it out for a typical rock band.

G.

 

[Farview]

A very long time ago, I worked on a Mackie and a Tascam 16 track. It worked out well, the two complemented each other.

If you want to stay with 8 tracks, I would still try to get a 12 or 16 channel board (like Falken said) because you will need more inputs than tracks. Biamp and Tascam made decent boards that aren't too expensive now.

The minimalist thing messes with my way of thinking. I normally have at least 10 mics on a 5 piece kit, going back to 8 tracks for a whole band would make my eyes bleed.

 

[easychair]

Glenn,

Just curious, why DIs on the vox?

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Glenn,

Just curious, why DIs on the vox?

I was wondering how long before someone would ask that...I judt didn't think iit would be that fast!

The only reason the DIs are there is so I can split the signal to send one line to the PA and another to my recording mixer.

This layout also assumes no FOH to tap off of.

G.

 

[Chicoo]

Jason mages some excellent points, none of which I disagree with. But if you're looking for guerilla recording live it *can* indeed be done with 8 tracks on a budget in an extremely portable form factor with suprisingly decent quality if you're willing to do some submixing on the fly.

I have done this fairly regularly for about 5 years now using a single 13-U rack on wheels with a Mackie 1604VLZ mixer, an ADAT XT and some common live use microphones. Substitute your 1/4" for the ADAT and you could do the same thing. Attached is a basic schematic diagram of how I lay it out for a typical rock band.

G.

Well, my question wasn't totally technical.
But thanks anyway.
Though i hate Shure SM57 or 58.
You didn't talk about Protools yet.. Yuk!

How is the sound of an ADAT?
I'm not sure digital sound is the right one for recording rock bands..

 

[Chicoo]

A very long time ago, I worked on a Mackie and a Tascam 16 track. It worked out well, the two complemented each other.

If you want to stay with 8 tracks, I would still try to get a 12 or 16 channel board (like Falken said) because you will need more inputs than tracks. Biamp and Tascam made decent boards that aren't too expensive now.

The minimalist thing messes with my way of thinking. I normally have at least 10 mics on a 5 piece kit, going back to 8 tracks for a whole band would make my eyes bleed.

Well, most of the nowadays groups have less than 5 members
(they are lost of groups with only two or three people in it)..

As i said, it's not a technical question..
I'm sure it's important to have a board with 12 or 16 tracks, you're right.
But i could even decide to mix the whole thing and record it on a 2 tracks
tape.. it's could be an artistic choice.

you may disagree with this way of thinking, but i'm asking about "sound",
you're answering "number of tracks".

well.

 

[FALKEN]

you may disagree with this way of thinking, but i'm asking about "sound", you're answering "number of tracks".

if you don't care how many tracks go stereo.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Well, my question wasn't totally technical.
But thanks anyway.
Though i hate Shure SM57 or 58.
You didn't talk about Protools yet.. Yuk!

How is the sound of an ADAT?
I'm not sure digital sound is the right one for recording rock bands..

Well, you're question sounded pretty technical to me, considering you were asking what kind of gear to use to get a good live recording in a portable package.

My post was intended to give an example of how it could be done easily and with quality with a rack-width 16x4 mixer and an 8-track recorder like you already have. Not only was that a direct answer to your question, but it was also a reply to Jason's post that the way to record live was the textbook mobile recording panel van way to do it.

Nowhere did I say you had to use Shure mics, anymore than you have to use a ProVLA or a 2215. USe whatever you prefer, that's fine. That was an example layout based upon successful jobs I have done in the past with gear that was available to me and appropriate at the time. The idea was to show how to submix to get the most flexibility out of 8 channles of recording on a compact format. (BTW, you won't find a better live mic for guitar cabs than a 57.)

As far as digital not being right for recording rock bands, I suggest you bring that up with every rock band from The Rolling Stones on down who have been recorded (live and in studio) in nothing but digital for the past 15 years. Also, note that I specifically said that you would replace the ADAT with your Fostex if you like, that the ADAT is just what I had used. If you don't like digital, don't go digital. But I will say that the analog vs. digital argument is kind of pointless when it comes to recording live gigs at this level of budget. Getting good miking and a clean mix wil be 99% of the sound in a live recording at this level. If you ain't got that, it won't matter if your using nothing but Neve, Pultec and Studer, it will still sound like crappy garage band stuff. On the other hand, if you do have it right, whether it's digital or analog will make only about 1% difference at that point; especially if we're talking 8-track 1/4" vs. ADAT XT.

G.

 

[Farview]

As i said, it's not a technical question..
I'm sure it's important to have a board with 12 or 16 tracks, you're right.
But i could even decide to mix the whole thing and record it on a 2 tracks
tape.. it's could be an artistic choice.

'What equipment do I need' is a technical question. Even if you decide to mix everything to 2-track, you will still need a board with more than 2 inputs unless you are going to mic the room and let it fly.

you may disagree with this way of thinking, but i'm asking about "sound", you're answering "number of tracks". well.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I was meerly stating that my first answer was based on the way I think to do things.

What would you like to know about sound? If you want something that borders on muddy and distorts easily, your Fostex is the way to go. Your problem will be finding a board that is cheap and has those qualities. Cheap electronics tend to be more shrill than anything. A compromise would be something with a lot of clarity. That way you aren't loosing anything. The tape should give you all the girth you need.

 

[Chicoo]

As far as digital not being right for recording rock bands, I suggest you bring that up with every rock band from The Rolling Stones on down who have been recorded (live and in studio) in nothing but digital for the past 15 years. Also, note that I specifically said that you would replace the ADAT with your Fostex if you like, that the ADAT is just what I had used. If you don't like digital, don't go digital. But I will say that the analog vs. digital argument is kind of pointless when it comes to recording live gigs at this level of budget. Getting good miking and a clean mix wil be 99% of the sound in a live recording at this level. If you ain't got that, it won't matter if your using nothing but Neve, Pultec and Studer, it will still sound like crappy garage band stuff. On the other hand, if you do have it right, whether it's digital or analog will make only about 1% difference at that point; especially if we're talking 8-track 1/4" vs. ADAT XT.

G.

Well, you may misunderstanding my purpose, cause what i really like,
is crappy garage band stuff.. (60's Garage Bands for instance).

I'm not going to record the rolling stones or whatever of this kind.
You may disagree again, but i don't think that the last rolling stones albums are the best rock albums ever..
I'm not a professional and that's not the purpose.
I'm just trying to find low cost analog equipment that is not "flat"
but which could bring some colours; but i'd like to doo a correct mix too.

I was hoping that someone could bring me names of old mixing boards (affordable ones), or interesting microphones or even tape recorders.

I agree with you about the clear mixing, or even ADAT, but once again, everything is a question of artistic choice.
I won't detail what i'm searching to do, but i'm certainly not in your kind of view.

Even if what you say is very interesting to me.
Chicoo.

 

[Chicoo]

'What equipment do I need' is a technical question. Even if you decide to mix everything to 2-track, you will still need a board with more than 2 inputs unless you are going to mic the room and let it fly.

What would you like to know about sound? If you want something that borders on muddy and distorts easily, your Fostex is the way to go. Your problem will be finding a board that is cheap and has those qualities. Cheap electronics tend to be more shrill than anything. A compromise would be something with a lot of clarity. That way you aren't loosing anything. The tape should give you all the girth you need.

Yes!
I think you're kind of understanding my problem.
If you could help me in this way, it would be perfect.

Thanks for you answer.
Chicoo.

 

[Farview]

Off the top of my head, Bi-aqmp and Tascam made good boards that had a sound to them. They should be getting cheap becaues they were workhorses and are not sought after.

I'm sure you can find old radio shack mics, I've recorded shows with an old RS stereo mic plugged into a cassette deck and I was very happy with the results.

If you are going for artistic grunge, you can pick up just about anything and make it work. You could also try using mics for things they were never designed for, like using a kick mic for vocals...

 

[mr.rich]

i used a ramsa console for years and liked alot more than some soundcrafts, tascams, mackies ive used. you can get a ramsa board and a Tascam 1/2" 8 for pretty cheap. get a rack to put effects and a couple bays in so when you move most stuff is in one box. these days you could set up a workable 8 track system and get pretty good results for about 1500 bucks id say. ive done primarily punk and metal for the last few years and if you pm me i could come of with a cheap gear list of basicly the same gear i learned on.

heres some stuff i did with a fairly minimal setup. 16 track 1". not more than a few days on the whole session ( they didnt have much budget). turned out pretty good

http://www.myspace.com/blackeyesandneckties

 

[Farview]

i used a ramsa console for years and liked alot more than some soundcrafts, tascams, mackies ive used. you can get a ramsa board and a Tascam 1/2" 8 for pretty cheap. get a rack to put effects and a couple bays in so when you move most stuff is in one box. these days you could set up a workable 8 track system and get pretty good results for about 1500 bucks id say. ive done primarily punk and metal for the last few years and if you pm me i could come of with a cheap gear list of basicly the same gear i learned on.

heres some stuff i did with a fairly minimal setup. 16 track 1". not more than a few days on the whole session ( they didnt have much budget). turned out pretty good

http://www.myspace.com/blackeyesandneckties

Ramsa! That was the one I couldn't think of. Good call.

 

[mr.rich]

yea theyre a steal for the $. the fact that they a rarely mentioned has kept the prices fairly low. only thing i didnt like was not havving a monitor section. had to bring up the monitor side on free channels for ever. didnt realize how bad it sucked until i started working with a trident series 70 was like "oh those little pots over there let you listen back while u record? u mean you dont HAVE to screw up the mic channels everytime you wanna build a rough mix?". haha