EQ Rules of Thumb

  • Thread starter Thread starter doncol07
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Raw-Tracks said:
And usually you can find 10x more articles where those "big time engineers" say that they only applied +/- 1dB of EQ or compression gain reduction. The fact is, that's the bullshit. I've worked with some of those engineers. They are doing more "suregery" than they will admit to in public.
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Oh, I totally agree with that! That is one of the biggest gripes I have about "big time" producers and engineers writing articles and hogging attention on BBS's. They are supposedly "helping" you with "secrets". But in reality, they don't want to share even ONE little hint about how they achieve their sounds! I don't really blame them, but if you are going to not share, just say something like "Well, that is a "trick" I choose not to share in public".

But nope, they have to say "Well, I was so good at capturing the sound, I only had to apply 1dB of gain to make that track work". LOL

Yeah right buddy!
 
LordSire said:
Hey, Ford? You just made a comment and said that sonar 4 is very capable. Would you happen to have any opinions on CEP's capabilities? As far as being able to handle major eq applications, such as the ones you guys are mentioning?
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For a learning experience, and not necessarily that you will be able to make this thing EVER do what you want

http://www.smartelectronix.com/refer.php?url=~magnus/files/NyquistEq-5band-win-vst-2004-11-10.zip

For a more musical one

http://imaps.free.fr/docs/plugins/ParisEQ11.zip
 
Be Careful!!!

In the "recording techniques" forum; under the thread "what do commerecial artists use", I got my ass handed to me from MANY different people telling me that there are no "tricks" or "secrets" in the engineering aspect. With attempts to make me believe I was the "omni" idiot of the site, to ever BELIEVE such "garbage"!!! Glad its all over: it's an ugly can of worms to open, buddy!!! Let me tell you!!!
 
LordSire said:
Hey, Ford? You just made a comment and said that sonar 4 is very capable. Would you happen to have any opinions on CEP's capabilities? As far as being able to handle major eq applications, such as the ones you guys are mentioning?
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Well, we would be getting into subtleties about different applications.

Truthfully, and I don't know if it is just the average skills of people that use CEP, or if it is the app itself, CEP just has a weird sound to me.

Maybe if some guys whose work I admire did it in CEP (Adobe Audition now), I would feel differently.

But, CEP SHOULD be able to achieve quite good results! But, it IS an older digital mixing scheme, so DSP has really improved since CEP was sold to Adobe. I mean, I feel that Sonar 4 was the first engine by Cakewalk that was seriously good. All the version before it seemed to kind of kill the sound in some way that I didn't like. I don't know the how's or why's, just after having spent MANY MANY MANY hours on stuff, it just couldn't quite "get there" with a mix. Of course, I still kind of feel that way with Sonar 5. Overall, I just don't think digital mixing is quite up to the task of what I consider "KILLER" sounding mixes. But, all these apps are quite capable of good results IF you know what you are doing, and work at it.

I would say that my biggest gripe about mixing in the box is that it takes so long and is so tedious to adjust plugin's! I HATE adjusting plugin's with the mouse! At least with hardware, you can grab a knob and turn it easily! No clicking thru menu's and having to move things around, and squinting at the screen with hardware! Nope, you grab the knob and turn it! :)

Too many people try to blame their tools for poor sounding audio. It isn't that simple at all! There is a LOT of experimenting that goes into making great sounding productions! Trust me, most of you don't even have the patience to do big time sounding work. Just imagine holing up in a studio for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for like 3 months straight! It is exhausting work, and requires a lot of patience and stamina!

When I am "serious" about a mix, it is not uncommon for me to work on it all day, with only short breaks every hour. I might "print" several versions of the mix, with each version having slightly different mix levels and/or eq settings on key tracks.

Anyway, don't worry about whether CEP can get the job done. I am sure that it is capable of exceeding your expectations if you know what you are doing with it.
 
i think i need to jump to the cool edit forum

i may be mistaken, but i dont think cool edit supports vst effects. I was offered some Kjaerhaus vst plug-ins for compression, delay, eq, etc. But i have the slightest idea how to access them from cool edit.
 
Ford Van said:
I would say that my biggest gripe about mixing in the box is that it takes so long and is so tedious to adjust plugin's! I HATE adjusting plugin's with the mouse! At least with hardware, you can grab a knob and turn it easily! No clicking thru menu's and having to move things around, and squinting at the screen with hardware! Nope, you grab the knob and turn it! :)
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Ive never had the luxury of having a board big enough to be able to assign all my tracks to an individual source/track, for manipulation. All i have is the DAW. And let me tell you, you are right!!! By the time you hear the project playing over and over, your ears are tired before you actually find the right "drop-box", or whatever!

Yes. It is a very demanding process on your ears, eyes, and back; trying to do your mix "in the box" as you put it. I could only hope someday soon, i'll be able to just "grab a knob and turn it", cause i can just imagine the ease of it all.

One question. I've heard an awful lot about this adobe audition since ive joined this site. But that is the first time that ive heard about the buyout of cool edit by adobe. So as far as the actual on-screen "workstation", is it pretty much visually the same?
 
Well, usually in version changes, the layout might change some.

But, I am betting that it isn't that much different. Generally, the newer versions are "better", and older version users generally don't have much trouble figuring things out. BUT, there might have been a few new versions of Adobe Audition since it was CEP.

Yeah, you will need a VST Wrapper to use vst's in CEP. pipelineaudio linked you to a VST Wrapper. Check it out.
 
hey, pipeline?

what's this? And how do i access it/them. I downloaded the vst wrapper lite, but i cant do anything with it but read a "note" in the folder, or go online for help; no true applications downloaded.
 
You should start a thread to ask this. I am sure there is SOMEBODY around here still using CEP with that wrapper.

I don't use CEP, and haven't seen that wrapper for like 3 years or more.
 
thanx fellas

i REALLY hope someone can steer me in the right direction. I'm looking forward to trying out some of these new plug ins ive been given over the last week or two!! It may just be because i dont know what im doing all the way, yet. But im just having so many problems with the "sit in the mix" issue with my vocals. And i dont think the eq's in CEP are doing the job.

But like i said before, i really dont know the exact application i should be applying to the vocals for presence.

Thanx again, folks for your help. Im going to jump over to CEP's forum and see if anyone knows how to get this vst wrapper up and running
 
put the vst *.dll files in a folder called c:\program files\VSTPlugins

if you dont have one make it

You should then be able to open "VST Wrapper Wizard" from the spin audio wrapper you downloaded and specify the plugin you want to wrap. This wrapper will only actually allow one wrapped instance
 
no "wrapping wizard"

just an internet "help" link, a product information selection, and an internet "contact us" link. That's all that downloaded with the file. Any other "wrapper" companies that you might be able to "hip" me to?
 
OK, this one seems to work differently than the full version

Here's how it works

1. Open your direct x plugin chooser window in CEP

2. Select the plugin "VST-DX Wrapper 1.0"

3. Open it up and point it to your vst plugin
 
xfinsterx said:
So whats with hating on metal and hip hop man?
Thats total bullshit SG.
It takes some FUCKING SERIOUS knowhow to get a modern metal mix that stands up against whats out there these days.
Just because YOU dont do metal and aggresive rock dosent mean you should be walking around here pissing on the people who do it well.

And BTW im COMPELLED to hear a clip of your work.
I dont recall you ever posting any.
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Oh for crying out loud, finster, I'm not hating on music, or on people for liking certain types of music. I have never said anything of the sort. And thanks for - to quote you - "stapling my balls to my legs" in private for something I never said or meant.

What I have said a few times on this board recently is that there seems to be a tendancy for many rookies on this board to simply assume that because they are metalworkers or hip hoppers that everyone else here is as well. Because of that assumption of genre, a lot of bad roads get traveled. The irony is that is exactly what I am being blamed for in reverse here.

The point I was originally trying to make was that the problem most rookies who come to this board have is that their mixes sound bad for two main reasons: first because their recordings sound bad to begin with, and second because they are trying to fix their recordings via compression and EQ. Telling sincere folks like this that they shouldn't worry about their tracking and that they need to "EQ the fuck" out of their mix (which they are for the most part already doing, BTW) is like handing someone a bucket of gasolene to put out their kitchen fire. It's bad advice to give a rookie on this board.

And look, I don't like to wave resumes or credentials around or drop names in an exercise of vanity. A person's worth on a forum like this is exactly equal to the quality of their posts. And I stand by mine. I have helped far more people with far more problems on this board than most people here have. But if you insist:

I'll admit that my resume is nowhere near as glamerous or impressive as something like pipeline's. (And I hope you notice that nowhere in this thread did I argue with pipeline himself. It's Ford Van's/Sonusman's post that I had a problem with.) But I still have been a pro working in this business since an associate and I built our first project studio in 1979. Since then I have done engineering or engineering support work for WGN-TV, Jim Henson Productions (The Muppets), Metro Digital L.A., Jim Tilmon (of WMAQ-TV and WBBM-TV), and others. I was a member of the engineering team for D-Vision Systems and Discreet Logic; designing, building and testing both the hardware and software for professional-quality non-linear editing workstations for audio and video long before Steinberg and Digidesign were household names. I worked side-by-side for over a year with the editor of the movie "Lonesome Dove" and provided engineering assistance for our workstations that were used on movies such as "Forrest Gump" and "ID4: Independance Day". I have had other clients whom I worked with on regular basis from as far as England, South Africa, Argentina and China.

On the more musical side of things, I have been working with live and studio bands and artists since the early 80s, providing both FOH and AE duties and have made live recordings as places as demanding as Bourbon Street, The Omnimax Theatre, The House of Blues and The Old Town School of Folk Music. Bands and artists I have worked with and currently work with on a regular basis include past and present members of: the touring band for Stevie Wonder, The (Funky) Meters, The Remainders, and American English, among many, many others. I studied music and harp under the personal guidance and tuitilage of Joe Filisko, the custom harp maker preferred by the likes of Kim Wilson, Bruce Willis, Howard Levy, Charlie Musselwhite and many others.

On top of all that, and probably most important, is that I also have years of experience as a teacher/trainer and technical support engineer in technical subjects from audio engineering and video editing to computer mainframe networking and telecommunications. That expereince goes a long way to qualifying a technical rookies needs, educating them on the right principles to get them on their feet, and explaining complex problems and solutions in a simple manner.

This isn't a dick-waving contest. Ok, Ok, Pipeline has a bigger johnson on his resume than I do. But in no way did I just fall off a turnip truck either. And I stick by the contention that telling your average Home Recording Forum reader to improve the sound of their mixes by "EQing the fuck" out of them just plain and simply is a bad, bad idea, IMHO. And what makes it even worse is that Ford Van/Sonusman knows that it's a bad idea. It doesn't matter whether the rookie is doing metal or any other genre of music. If his tracks sound like shit, they are not going to sound any better with 12dB of EQ slathered on top of them.

If you guys can't see that point, then go ahead and flame away and staple my balls to my legs in private messages and attack my worthless rep points. I don't care. I'm just trying to help the guy with some advice that's far more useful and far less damaging than "EQ the fuck out of your mixes."

G.
 
I love it when SouthSIDE Glen goes on a rampage! It makes the Chicago in me proud. :D

Reading SouthSIDE Glen's post, he seems to be coming from the angle that it is irresponsible to advise people that don't know any better or are inexperienced to use massive amounts of eq.

An engineer who has lots of training and experience will know when it's okay to use extreme eq settings and when it isn't. Someone without the training and professional experience can easily get themselves into gobs of trouble using extreme settings on *any* piece of gear.

One of the hallmarks of newbies to signal processing is that they overuse the effect. I know because I was newbie once, and I've seen it happen with others over and over. Someone new to compressors will most likely grossly overuse use it, dialing in huge amounts of compression. Same goes for eq, reverb, practically any effect or process. An experienced engineer uses what's needed and no more. So if what is needed is a little that's what happens. If what is needed is a lot, then that is what happens.

But the element of judgement comes in, knowing *when* to use such settings. And certainly using extreme settings on any gear is the exception, not the rule.
 
How do people "know any better" until they try?

Sheesh....

How do they get training and experience until they do it and try things?

:rolleyes:

The FACT that remains is that the more experienced I have in audio, the more I realize that I TRIED a lot of things to get there.

Nope, I don't have to "eq the fuck out of x" every time. Certainly, the audio doesn't always need it. But when it does, I go for it! I don't care what Southside Goobs "rules" are, and I don't let my experience level decide for me whether I will try ANYTHING to make the audio sound better.

You guys act like it will be the end of the world if a guy tries to use some EQ on something!

I don't disagree that many productions I hear suffer from inferior tracking! BUT, even pipelineaudio has played me stuff in it's raw form, that simply isn't all that impressive sounding until he DOES mangle it with EQ. It just isn't always possible to track the sound that is going to work. So, we use the tools to mangle those tracks to behave the way we want them too, and frankly it happens FAR more often than most engineers want to admit.

Now, I just read a wrap up of Southside's career, but, the real proof is in the puddin'. Let's hear some audio from you bubba. I could care less how long you have worked in video production. I want to hear your STUDIO RECORDING work. My reputation grew around here because I could back up my talk with audio that sounded great. I want to hear examples of your work so I may see how worthwhile your advice is!
 
SonicAlbert said:
And certainly using extreme settings on any gear is the exception, not the rule.
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You are kidding right?

Have you ever actually used a real life 1176 and or LA2A?

Have you ever read about how EXTREME of setting are often used on these two boxes by MANY engineers?

Obviously not!

Certainly, I will not be using "extreme" settings for a jazz recording! But in most every form of pop music, EXTREME'S is how you get the sounds you hear on records!
 
Ford Van said:
How do they get training and experience until they do it and try things?
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"Training" is apprenticing. "Training" is learning in a live situation with a head engineer either on the job or in a school environment. "Experience" is working for clients, getting paid for it, and having to deliver according to their demands.

Reading message board advice doesn't qualify as training, and neither does sitting alone in a home studio twiddling knobs or tweaking plugins. Yes you might be learning, yes you might be getting better, but that still is not "training".

The point I think you may be missing in southSIDE glen's post is that he uses the work "rookie" many times. Yeah sure engineer's use extreme settings on their 1176's, but to advise people that don't have the experience or knowledge to use extreme settings *to fix problems* in the tracking that should be fixed another way is not necessarily good advice in my opinion. The key word here again is "rookie".

My take was that southSIDE was talking about rookies. Here's another quote from my post which you just responded to twice:

"An engineer who has lots of training and experience will know when it's okay to use extreme eq settings and when it isn't. Someone without the training and professional experience can easily get themselves into gobs of trouble using extreme settings on *any* piece of gear."

Notice that I didn't say that it was bad to use extreme settings, only that the engineer needs to really know what they are doing in order to know *when* to use what settings properly.

I think we are talking about two different things here.
 
No, we are NOT talking about two different things.

Audio production is about DOING! I am VERY MUCH self taught! Indeed, I could have shaved a bit off the learning time by sitting in countless sessions with a very experienced engineer, but I didn't. I put in the hours, totally willing to try ANYTHING!

It isn't like this guy is going to hurt anything using eq! What is he going to hurt? Audio files on his computer? :rolleyes: It isn't like he only has one shot at doing it right or it is forever fucked!

Anybody who becomes really good at this "art" is forever a "rookie". I learn new things all the time. The only thing experience has taught me is that if I fall back on "safe" things to do, I will not come up with anything interesting, and generally, I won't realize the full potential of my audio.

It is NOT "ameture" advice to tell a guy to "eq the fuck out of" something, if that is what is needed! Read my original post! I said to do what is NEEDED to improve the sound of the track. The fact is, many times extreme eq CAN be just want is needed, and CERTAINLY there is many times, even in big time productions where more than 2 or 3dB of cut/boost of eq is applied!

You learn nothing "playing it safe". You can play with words all you want about "training" and "experience", but the fact remains that MANY of the finest mixing engineers have little to now "training", but have a LOT of experience twidling with knobs in the studio!

If seems like the "pro's" on this site discourage people from experimenting! I find that amazing. Admit it! YOU got better from experimentation, and IF you are truely experienced, you KNOW for a fact that until a guy sits down at the console for obscene amounts of hours/days, you will never learn what will work in any given situation.

Let's also take into account PREFERENCE! I know guys that like to put eq before compression, and other guys that prefer to put compression before eq. Which one is right, and when? Neither is right, and neither way if effective for everything all the time. Thus, you have to EXPERIMENT. Now, what if Southside Goob tells me I HAVE to compress before I eq? What if I go about my business of producing audio ALWAYS compressing before I eq? Well, frankly, I will never experience the other side of that! I OFTEN eq before I compress.

One small example of how a "rule" sucks and will hold you back!

There are times when the distortion created by a extreme eq boost just does the trick! Yup, maybe doing something that extreme on say a tom track also boosts up the cymbal bleed. Oh god! I raised the noise floor according to Southside, so I shouldn't do it, even though it makes the tom sound great!

Myself, I will just throw a noisegate before the eq so that the cymbal bleed is lessened. ;)

There are NO RULES for producing great audio. And there are NO RULES concerning how "experienced" you need to be to try stuff.

The fact remains that you cannot "teach" a person how they want something to sound to them. You can teach a person what something will do, but after than, their EXPERIENCE will tell them when something is right or wrong for what they are working on.

Drop the elitest talk about how "rookies" shouldn't break rules that don't even exist! It is insulting to suggest that a guy isn't "ready" to apply more than a few dB of cut/boost on an eq just because he lacks experience. That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard! I would NEVER take advice from people that think this way, nor would I ever learn.

Like pipelineaudio suggested earlier, you have to know the "rules" first! With regards to eq, the first and only rule is: there are NO such rules!
 
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