EQ question

[PhiloBeddoe]

try again... re-read my post... sorry, but this has nothing to do with equipment. my EQ curve is a very good starting point for guitar distorted or not...

I'm always amazed at comments like this one, but I shouldn't be. how suggestions get totally discounted. whatever, I know this EQ is a very good starting point. believe it or not.

I never said that your settings would not work under any circumstances. However, automatically applying the same settings regardless of guitar, amp, microphone(s), and mix is not good policy. This game is all about getting the elements of a mix to work together. Obsessing over eq of a soloed track can be dangerous.

For example, very often a kick drum and/or bass guitar have a lot of energy the 80Hz area. If you boost the guitars there you will end up with a very muddy mix. You could choose to boost the guitars there and cut the kick and bass, but then your low end would probably suffer overall. In fact it's quite common to use a HPF at 80Hz.

Regarding equipment, speakers like 12GT75, Vintage 30, and Greenbacks have very different eq profiles. A Royer 121 ribbon will sound very different from a SM57. Obviously the guitar itself can make a huge difference. The list goes on.

 

[Sonixx]

...However, automatically applying the same settings regardless of guitar, amp, microphone(s), and mix is not good policy.

Regarding equipment, speakers like 12GT75, Vintage 30, and Greenbacks have very different eq profiles.

I never stated the same settings... it's not a recipe or script, but a guide, that works. also, one is always free to never try this much less ever use it. that's the cool thing. one can pick and choose... that seems to elude most of these discussions.

there are universal truths for heavy guitar...

Bottom is around 80Hz
Note is around 400Hz
In your face is around 1.5KHz
Bite is around 3.5KHz to 6KHz
and 2.3KHz not so pleasing

if one wants more/less note, work in the 400Hz Range
if one wants more/less in-your-face, work in the 1.5KHz range
if one wants more/less bite, work in the 3.5K - 6KHz range

learning how those areas sound and learning to work the EQ in those areas can be very beneficial. but getting the source right and mic positioning is paramount before any EQ is applied.

BTW, I have all the speakers you mention and more and have spent many hours recording them. I also have a fairly large mic locker.

Cheers.

 

[jonnyc]

I never stated the same settings... it's not a recipe or script, but a guide, that works. also, one is always free to never try this much less ever use it. that's the cool thing. one can pick and choose... that seems to elude most of these discussions.

there are universal truths for heavy guitar...

Bottom is around 80Hz
Note is around 400Hz
In your face is around 1.5KHz
Bite is around 3.5KHz to 6KHz
and 2.3KHz not so pleasing

if one wants more/less note, work in the 400Hz Range
if one wants more/less in-your-face, work in the 1.5KHz range
if one wants more/less bite, work in the 3.5K - 6KHz range

learning how those areas sound and learning to work the EQ in those areas can be very beneficial. but getting the source right and mic positioning is paramount before any EQ is applied.

BTW, I have all the speakers you mention and more and have spent many hours recording them. I also have a fairly large mic locker.

Cheers.

That's all great, but if you're going through and boosting a bunch of frequencies to make your guitars sound right then you're doing something wrong on the amp. From your eq graph is looks like you're recording your guitars too thin and muffled.

I will say though if those clips on your sig are yours then you are doing a pretty good job, your eq graph just makes me wonder why there's so much boosting.

 

[Sonixx]

From your eq graph is looks like you're recording your guitars too thin and muffled.

trust your ears... don't be concerned with the graph, understand the sonic areas and what they present to the whole, then you can manipulate beneficially

I will say though if those clips on your sig are yours then you are doing a pretty good job...

thanks and yeah those are my clips...

 

[jonnyc]

trust your ears...

Exactly, if your ears are telling you that you need to go thru and boost a bunch of frequencies then you're doing something wrong at the amp. Honestly I never understood why people needed to radically eq or boost frequencies when recording guitars. You should be able to get damn close to what you need without use much eq at all or at the most use subtractive eq'ing.

 

[masteringhouse]

there are universal truths for heavy guitar...

Bottom is around 80Hz
Note is around 400Hz
In your face is around 1.5KHz
Bite is around 3.5KHz to 6KHz

If you replace maybe "note" with "body" and "bite" with "presence" don't these descriptions fit most midrange instruments?

 

[Sonixx]

If you replace maybe "note" with "body" and "bite" with "presence" don't these descriptions fit most midrange instruments?

I guess... those terms are Okay with me though. I also don't consider a high gain distorted gtr a mid range instrument. the gtr is, but not distorted.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I guess... those terms are Okay with me though. I also don't consider a high gain distorted gtr a mid range instrument. the gtr is, but not distorted.

Distortion in and of itself adds little to the frequency range of the electric guitar. It may change the distrubition of energy within that frequency range, move some of the forments and - depending on the nature of the distortion - perhaps emphasize some harmonics, but doesn't really signifigantly extend the overall range one way or another that would classify it as a different spectral class of instrument. The fundamental note range and harmonic capability remains the same.

But even beyond that, I don't see any mention in the OP or his refrains of distorted, sustained or "heavy" guitar. He only mentions "guitar" and "amp". There are as many styles of electric guitar sound as there are of vocals.

G.

 

[Sonixx]

Distortion in and of itself adds little to the frequency range of the electric guitar. It may change the distrubition of energy within that frequency range, move some of the forments and - depending on the nature of the distortion - perhaps emphasize some harmonics, but doesn't really signifigantly extend the overall range one way or another that would classify it as a different spectral class of instrument. The fundamental note range and harmonic capability remains the same.

I understand your point, but High Gainers can add significant amounts of energy two and three octaves above the fundamental. this can be beneficial or detrimental. it has to be dealt with. close micing picks up a lot of nasty stuff coming right off the cone, so mic positioning is paramount, but still...

But even beyond that, I don't see any mention in the OP or his refrains of distorted, sustained or "heavy" guitar. He only mentions "guitar" and "amp". There are as many styles of electric guitar sound as there are of vocals.

maybe a bad assumption on my part, but Aviel is having problems specifically in areas that I am very familiar, the 2KHz area.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

maybe a bad assumption on my part, but Aviel is having problems specifically in areas that I am very familiar, the 2KHz area.

Well, the 2-4kHz area is typically a potential problem area for just about everybody, as that's where ear sensitivity and practically every instrumenmt and vocal all get together to party at high energy. There's nothing unusual about that, nor anything different in the nature of metallic guitar versus anything else in a mix in that regard.

2k-4k is where the ear/brain picks up most on vocal annunciation and recognition and stereo location; it's a very important frequency range to survival. It's also, unfortunately for us, within the high energy range of just abouut every instrument in the locker. For these reasons, any engineer worth their salt had better be intimately familiar with the upper mids.

But then again, the same can be said for different, but equally important, reasons for every frequency range there is between 20 and 20k. In that regard there is noting special about the upper mids.

You've got a good general feel for many of the key ranges in the frequency spectrum (all of which are more or less true for everything, not just metal guitar, BTW), that I give you good credit for. But the curve you give is in many instances just going to be downright improper. I know you state it as a starting point only, but it's a starting point that in many cases can be just plain wrong (your own experience aside.)

It remains too early in the process for any of us to suggest a specifc EQ curve - let alone whether he really even needs any EQ at all - to someone who has given a very detail-limited text description of his problem with no supporting clips. He needs to get his sound refined by dialing in his amp and getting the mic technique right first, then applying EQ *as called for by the resulting recording itself*. And he needs to do this with parametric sweep EQing, not with graphic EQing as he has described.

G.

 

[Sonixx]

Well, the 2-4kHz area is typically a potential problem area for just about everybody, as that's where ear sensitivity and practically every instrumenmt and vocal all get together to party at high energy. There's nothing unusual about that, nor anything different in the nature of metallic guitar versus anything else in a mix in that regard.

2k-4k is where the ear/brain picks up most on vocal annunciation and recognition and stereo location; it's a very important frequency range to survival. It's also, unfortunately for us, within the high energy range of just abouut every instrument in the locker. For these reasons, any engineer worth their salt had better be intimately familiar with the upper mids.

But then again, the same can be said for different, but equally important, reasons for every frequency range there is between 20 and 20k. In that regard there is noting special about the upper mids.

You've got a good general feel for many of the key ranges in the frequency spectrum (all of which are more or less true for everything, not just metal guitar, BTW), that I give you good credit for. But the curve you give is in many instances just going to be downright improper. I know you state it as a starting point only, but it's a starting point that in many cases can be just plain wrong (your own experience aside.)

It remains too early in the process for any of us to suggest a specifc EQ curve - let alone whether he really even needs any EQ at all - to someone who has given a very detail-limited text description of his problem with no supporting clips. He needs to get his sound refined by dialing in his amp and getting the mic technique right first, then applying EQ *as called for by the resulting recording itself*. And he needs to do this with parametric sweep EQing, not with graphic EQing as he has described.

G.

there sure is a lot of energy going into discrediting my input by exception...
basically by your post I'm wrong because I don't do it the way you do... get over yourself. we'll just have agree to disagree.

 

[Aviel]

Well thanks for your help bros,
I tried playing with the mics and it seems to be the best positioning (which i used). actually i dont know how to check if my mics make phase cancelation- is there any specific way to check this?

by saying examing the eq, i meant that i could hear on the record a very annoying frequency, and the way to check it was by EQ sweep. maybe i shall try a parametric EQ indeed. though when using the graphic EQ i did with the larger Q possible.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

by saying examing the eq, i meant that i could hear on the record a very annoying frequency, and the way to check it was by EQ sweep. maybe i shall try a parametric EQ indeed. though when using the graphic EQ i did with the larger Q possible.

This is the part I don't understand, Aviel. I'm not sure how you are "sweeping" or adjusting Q with a graphic EQ. By normal definition - unless you have some kind of unique hybrid EQ type - a graphic EQ has fixed center frequencies for each band with no way to "sweep" through inter-band frequencies, as well as fixed bandwidths for each band. Which leaves me curious as to just which EQ make/model you're using.

G.

 

[Aviel]

This is the part I don't understand, Aviel. I'm not sure how you are "sweeping" or adjusting Q with a graphic EQ. By normal definition - unless you have some kind of unique hybrid EQ type - a graphic EQ has fixed center frequencies for each band with no way to "sweep" through inter-band frequencies, as well as fixed bandwidths for each band. Which leaves me curious as to just which EQ make/model you're using.

G.

Well i am using waves paragraphic eq

 

[masteringhouse]

Well thanks for your help bros,
I tried playing with the mics and it seems to be the best positioning (which i used). actually i dont know how to check if my mics make phase cancelation- is there any specific way to check this?

If you have the capsules next to each other (as per my suggestion Ala Andy Johns) they should be in phase assuming the cables are ok. Other than that, use your ears. When mics are out of phase the sound becomes more "hollow". Listen for when you get the best bottom end and you should be ok. Of course they don't have to be perfectly in phase if you get a sound that you like. One technique I've tried is to run the two sources to a set of headphones next to the amp and use noise (by holding the guitar cable) from the amp to help position the mics.

If you want to get scientific about it, run a few bursts of a given tone to the amp, check the difference in delay times between the waves, and then calculate the distance from the delay times.

For sources with a lot of overtones (like a distorted guitar) the distance can be very small and make a huge difference.

Oh yeah, what kind of mics are you using? If you're getting some nasty tones, you may want to stay clear of condenser mics.

 

[Sonixx]

Well thanks for your help bros,
I tried playing with the mics and it seems to be the best positioning (which i used). actually i dont know how to check if my mics make phase cancelation- is there any specific way to check this?

my suggestion for the meantime is to stay with one mic. you should be able to get a great the tone with just one mic... assuming the source tone is there and mic positioning is carefully considered. I'm not saying two is bad, it just complicates matters. although you can use just one of them if they're on separate tracks. when micing with two I put each on a separate track and align to taste later.

secondly, when you state phase cancellation, you'll always have some phasing when close micing with two. the idea is adjusting to achieve a particular result. as Masteringhouse stated, a fraction of an inch will make a huge difference.