Enough clean gain??

[mean_dorris]

Hey everyone,

I've got a question about ribbon microphones, I keep reading that they require a lot of preamp gain..
Is there enough clean gain in a typical compact mixing board? I've got a Mackie 1202VLZ, dated around '94 or '95. This will be my first mic (not counting my shure rs25 that i got for $25 new). I'm looking to spend about $150 or so, and I'm looking toward the Apex 215 or maybe the 210.
I'm an extreme newbie so far..
My gain knob goes to 20dB, there's also a trim knob which goes to 60 I think..

Thank you!

 

[kidvybes]

...most ribbons only just wake up at around 60+dB...70-75dB is more like it!...the AEA mic pre (designed for ribbon mics) tops out at a blazing 83dB!...

 

[antichef]

I've only got cheap ribbons (like sub $100), but my experience varies from the conventional wisdom some. With the stock transformers in them, they had about the same output as a SM57, believe it or not. I put better transformers in them, and the output went way down, but is still manageable for me (and they sound better, with more detail, wider response, all that nice stuff). I use a computer for mixing, etc., so I apply enough digital "gain" to bring the tracks up to the level of the other stuff, and it works well for me. Admittedly: 1) I usually record loud sources, like guitar amps or bagpipes with them, and 2) I've never worked with a "real" (i.e. high end) ribbon mic, though. The pres I generally use do have about 72db of gain, but I never go near that high - more like 40 to 50. But yes, I guess once I'm done boosting the hell out of the track digitally, I'm up in the 60-70s or sometimes even 80s.

But if you're working with an old mixer like that, does that tell us that you're staying in the analog-only world? If so, then you probably do want more gain.

(edit: I've been reading mshilarious's posts recently about cleanness of gain really meaning quietness of preamp overall -- with a noisy preamp, you just hear more of the noise when you turn up the gain -- I don't know if that's really relevant to your question, but it's interesting to think about)

 

[mean_dorris]

But if you're working with an old mixer like that, does that tell us that you're staying in the analog-only world? If so, then you probably do want more gain.

Well, I'm running it into my computer sound card and using Cool Edit to capture.
I'm guessing I have 80dB to work with (60 + 20). I've tried cranking a channel to max output to see how much noise I get, and there is some fuzz, but it backs off pretty quickly if i turn the knob back around 1/10th of a turn..

I'm trying to produce a sound that is analog, I guess. I'm only using a computer because it's what I have, and it's easier to work with and edit than tapes (I think).. Though I really enjoy lo-fi recordings, band demo tapes, bootlegs, and stuff of similar quality.

 

[antichef]

Well, ribbon mics are nice to have - particularly for guitar amps and brassy hurtful sounding instruments like bagpipes. If you have the budget for one, I'd just pick it (or them) up -- you'll know soon enough whether you need to then get a new preamp or not - worst case, re-sale on ribbon mics isn't too bad I imagine, but you'll probably won't want to sell.

And I'm sure you heard the plentiful warnings about applying phantom power to a ribbon mic -- with XLR cables, I heard it's still pretty difficult to screw up, but if you have a TRS cable (the Tip-Ring-Sleeve quarter inch jack) in the chain and you're plugging or unplugging it with phantom power on, you'll send a brief burst of 48V up the wrong pin and blow that ribbon to kingdom come -- I've gotten in the habit of always checking that phantom power is off, even though I generally don't have TRS cables in the places where it could be dangerous.

edit: another *potential* weak spot is your sound card. Yours may be different, but most (and by that I mean all) of the "standard" sound cards I've worked with had pretty noisy line-ins.

 

[mean_dorris]

I heard it's still pretty difficult to screw up,

Well I do have a habit of screwing stuff up..
It is a stock sound card that I'm using. My computer actually came with 2 sound cards, I'm using what appears to be the better of the 2. (The one with more inputs). Ever since I made the discovery that the mic input was mono, and the line-in was stereo, I haven't had any problems with noise..

Thanks for the advice!

 

[kidvybes]

...if you can save up just a bit more ($199), you can purchase a better sounding ribbon that is also "Phantom-Powered" so it will require much less gain and it will be impervious to accidental damage from phantom power bursts...check out Karma Audio's K-6...I've use it and it's much nicer than the Apex/Nady standard Chinese ribbon type:
http://karmaaudio.com/

 

[Gilliland]

I've got a question about ribbon microphones, I keep reading that they require a lot of preamp gain..
Is there enough clean gain in a typical compact mixing board?

If you're recording a loud source with a ribbon mic (drums, horns, loud guitars, loud vocals), you'll probably be fine. For a quieter source (quiet voice, flute, or distant miking of most instruments), you'll probably need a preamp with more clean gain, perhaps more than a typical inexpensive mixer. Ribbon mics produce a weaker signal, but it's still directly proportional to the level that reaches the mic.

 

[mshilarious]

If you're recording a loud source with a ribbon mic (drums, horns, loud guitars, loud vocals), you'll probably be fine. For a quieter source (quiet voice, flute, or distant miking of most instruments), you'll probably need a preamp with more clean gain, perhaps more than a typical inexpensive mixer. Ribbon mics produce a weaker signal, but it's still directly proportional to the level that reaches the mic.

Let's be clear on one thing: it's impossible to get a low noise floor when using a low-sensitivity mic on a quiet source. This is simply a matter of physics: it's impossible to build a preamp with much less than -130dBV noise. If you use a -56dBV/Pa mic on a 74dBSPL source, your signal level is -76dBV, and you will never have more than 54dB of dynamic range.

One possible way around this for a phantom-powered ribbon would be to use a high-ratio transformer into a circuit designed for that transformer in the mic. Combined with neodymium magnets, that approach could yield a low noise floor with a ribbon mic. But you need to evaluate a powered ribbon mic's noise level to see if it really results in an improvement, or just a perceived difference due to higher output level.

 

[mean_dorris]

But you need to evaluate a powered ribbon mic's noise level to see if it really results in an improvement, or just a perceived difference due to higher output level.

Would that not be the improvement I'd be looking for?

I intend to record a bunch of different things, small electric guitar amp, classical guitar (but not played classically ), bongos, this magnus air organ that sounds like a sweet accordion, as well as my vocals. They range from whispery mellow stuff to pretty loud cracky grunge stuff.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, loud sources are as likely as quiet.

I'm comfortable doing mods as long as they're pretty simple. I don't imagine that swapping transformers is a terribly difficult task, but I don't think I'll venture into swapping out magnets.

 

[mshilarious]

Would that not be the improvement I'd be looking for?

I have no idea; you'll have to try the mic. It all depends on the execution of the circuit.

I'm comfortable doing mods as long as they're pretty simple. I don't imagine that swapping transformers is a terribly difficult task, but I don't think I'll venture into swapping out magnets.

That's generally not possible; it's the ribbon motor itself. It's a matter of selecting the type of magnet you want in the first place.

 

[kidvybes]

...or to simplify...if it sounds good, it is good...(one man's "noise" is another man's "residual low level sound" or what I refer to as "I can't hear what you're talkin' about, but don't the music sound sweet?")