Electronic Drums... Calling All E-Drummers.

[VOXVENDOR]

Im thinking of trading in the Drum Machines for an Electric Kit... I do play drums, and I would like to have a bit more of a real playing feel to my programming.. Pressing these pads with my fingertips sucks...

Im looking at 4 Acupads (TE3 Series) 2 toms, 1 low tom, 1 snar

Accupad Bass drum Pad

Roland TD8 Module

Im gonna use a live set of Hats, and all live cymbals...(I already have them and love them...


Any suggestions?.... Am I going down the right alley with these Units?......


Oh, I have tried the V-Drum pads (the mesh ones) and I hate them, it's like hitting tennis rackets....

Oh and along with using the TD8 Module, say I want my snare sound to come from my EMU sampler, is there a way to hook that up?.... (Pardon my dumnbness)

 

[neirbo]

Voxvendor,

The TD-8 is a good choice for a sound module. Many Roland V-drummers will tell you the extra features of the TD-10 are not really worth the money. Using real cymbals is definitely a good call. Modeling cymbal sounds remains the biggest drawback of V-drums, although they have gotten alot better than they used to be.

Keep in mind though that with the better modules you are paying mostly for the quality of the modeled sounds. If you are planning on using the TD-8 just to record MIDI patterns (and use sound fonts or a softsynth to actually generate sounds), you could get by with a cheaper module.

As for the pads, I agree with you that the mesh heads don't feel right at first. But, you get used to them. The nice thing about them is they are VERY quiet. This may be important if you are also using condensors as overheads for cymbals. Of course, any noise from hitting a head will be largely masked by the triggered sound, so the head noise might not be a big deal. But it is something to consider.

I actually made my own pads. If you are at all a Do-it-Yourselfer, it is very easy to make pads that work every bit as good as a store-bought pad, and for very little money. It does take time though to learn the ropes, though. If interested, check out electronicdrums.com for some plans (some are free, some require a $20 membership fee). My favorites (in terms of feel) are actually the free plans that modify Remo practic pads.

You may have picked up that I am a cheap bastard A TD-8 with Acupads are certainly good options, but will probably set you back $1300 or so. A used TD-5 with DIY pads will set you back $300 and may be just as good for your purposes, but will cost you some time in building the pads.

Also, for good Vdrum info check out the forum at vdrums.com. Lots of good guys over there. I'd also be happy to pass on more info on building pads.

 

[neirbo]

One more thing

I forgot to mention that all the Roland modules (and most others I assume) have MIDI in and out, so you could set the module to trigger your EMU sampler.

 

[elevate]

A used TD-5 with DIY pads will set you back $300 and may be just as good for your purposes, but will cost you some time in building the pads.

I use a few DIY pads along with a Pintech six-padded unit. While the DIY pads work, I've yet to find a way to get them to be as sensitive as my Pintech pads. Part of the problem may be that I use them all in conjunction with an acoustic kit and the DIY pads seem especially prone to false triggers if I lower the sensitivity - especially when I whack the hell out of my snare. So basically I have to lower the sensivity so much that I have to beat the piss out of the DIY pads to get them to trigger.

 

[mikeh]

neirbo, is correct in all his statements. I have V-drums with the TD-10 and I think the TD-8 is a better module. The TD-10 has more outputs and more control parameters - but for the added cost, only a "power user" would need these options.

I have played numerous e-drums (going all the way back to the Simmons pads). The mesh heads, while taking some getting use to are by far less noisy - which if you are going to track live cymbals is a consideration.

I've heard "stick clicks" on recordings from where the overheads picked up the sound of the sticks on the "rubber pads" (like Roland and Yamaha) and on drum heads (like S&S pads or the DTExtreme) and useing something like the Remo practise pads with triggers is also very loud.

Now I've recorded often useing the V-Drum mesh pads with live cymbals with barely a trace of the sound of the sticks.

I also agree with neirbo that a used module like a TD-5 or an Alesis D4 may be a better choice for you - certainly less expensive - in particular if you plan to trigger other sounds anyway. And again neirbo is correct that almost any drum module maid in the last 10 years will have MIDI out which you could run to a sampler.

 

[neirbo]

Elevate, what kind of design did you use? Just curious.

Elevate raises a good point - false triggering can be a problem for any V-drums. It happens when the vibration from hitting one pad travels through the hardware and triggers a second drum. There is always a balance to be struck between making a pad and module settings too sensitive (leading to more false triggers) and not sensitive enough. The problem is only for pads physically connected (e.g. on a rack), and more of an issue for live playing or recording module sounds. If you are just recording MIDI notes, it is easy enough to edit out any false triggers.

My first DIY pads were problematic (too sensitive, not sensitive enough etc.) But with some experimentation, I'd put my pads up against any others. I modified the design I got from electronicdrums.com, and I think the results are much improved over their design. I actually did some experimentation with my mesh pads and a Roland mesh pad, and there literally was no difference in response. The only drawback was that my pads were not as rugged as a Roland pad, so they needed some maintenance now and then. They also LOOK like DIY pads (Franken-pads), so they wouldn't win any awards for slickness.

I'd be happy to pass on my modified design to anyone who is interested. I used roto-toms, Roland mesh heads, about $2 worth of electronics and foam from a Nerf football.

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Nierbo

Thanks for your help... (and everyone else too)

Im thinking of building the Remo Practice drum ones that are shown on ED.COM

What improvements have you made?... I would be very in debt to you if you would pass on your info on improving them.

Im not worried about them being a bit noisy, cause I would never be recording the cymbals, while im playing the kit... they are always seperate overdubs..

And in a live situation, the PA system with my kit will be loud enough to wipe out the noise from the stick hitting the pads.

Now, Im also thinking of buying the Alesis D4, and just triggering my Sampler, or existing Drum Machine... Is this complicated?

Joe..

 

[neirbo]

Joe,

I only improved on the mesh pad design. The Remo practice pad design on ED.com worked very well for me as is. These pads may be slightly less sensitive than mesh pads, which could be an issue if you do lots of rolls or delicate ghost notes. I don't actually recall having any real problems like that, but I moved pretty quickly to mostly mesh pads so I didn't use the Remos for long. Still, I suggest you build one pad at first and make sure it suits your needs before building a full kit.

In fact, if you want I'd be happy to send you both a mesh pad and a Remo pad to try out. I could even send you my TD-5. I am using my acoustics almost exclusively lately, so my Vdrums are just sitting around. Just pay shipping both ways and send them back in a couple of weeks.

You should have no trouble hooking the MIDI out of your module to the MIDI in of the sampler. Drums typically occupy MIDI channel 10. I don't use MIDI much myself, so I can't be too helpful here.

I tried playing Vdrums live only once, and didn't like it. Maybe I just needed better monitoring, but I missed the sound and feel of acoustic drums. To me Vdrums is purely a recording tool.

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Thanks for the offer to send me the stuff..Im really careless, and lazy with stuff, so I don't want to take you up on your offer... I will either break them, or forget to ship them back to to for like 6 months..... As I said, thanks anyways...


It's cheap enough that I can experiment here, and if they suck it's not too much of a loss for me.

I just paid for the membership to ED.COM and They haven't gotten back to me with my password or anything... Do they normally take a bit to get back to you with a password?

Joe

 

[elevate]

Neirbo - I made my pads out of the Remo practice pads and a piezo transducer. I cut out a little of the foam in the center so the transducer would not be against the head or the back of the pad. I made them about six years ago and at the time was unaware of any existing methodology - I just thought I was a freakin' genius for figuring it out.

Vox - The MIDI hookup between the module and your sampler shouldn't be very difficult. With samplers, I find the most difficult task is overcoming the limitations of their interfaces - a huge reason why I chose an Akai S-5000; lots of expandability and a nice big screen. I think what took the longest getting my DM5 to talk to my Akai was discovering that each units' root notes were not the same. I think the DM5 was C0 and the Akai was C3, or something like that. Once you get that out of the way, it's pretty easy - it probably takes me about two or three minutes to set up a new sample-trigger relation between the two units.

 

[cordura21]

did anybody tried Paia's drum brain?

http://www.paia.com/midibrn.htm

 

[getuhgrip]

Hey Vox,

I swapped a set of acoustics for a Roland Studio kit back around the first of the year. This is made up of PD7 and PD9 pads and the TD8 module.
The rubber pads took some getting use to and I may upgrade to the tunable pads this winter.
After configuring the pads I plugged into an old Peavey bandit amp. Even through a full range speaker I was impressed with how realistic they sounded. The TD8 allows you to tailor every drum sound from head type to shell depth, ect.
The real orgasm came when I recorded some tracks and played back through my monitors! They sound funny through a guitar amp and only a little better through cans, but they sound great where it counts.....on the recording.
I'm going to add a 2 way crossover and a tweeter to the bandit and experiment with micing the amp at low level and mixing with the direct signal to add some depth.
Bottom line is I wouldn't do live gigs without a real monitoring rig, but for recording I have found a way to get the right sound for any song with just a little tweeking of the module.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...6110588423/search/g=home/detail/base_id/45297

 

[neirbo]

Elevate, you are obviously a freakin' genious for MacGyvering (MacGyverizing?) a pad from scratch I wouldn't have had a clue without plans. The ED.com plans are basically the same as you describe, except that they also call for hot gluing a piece of sheet metal (the bottom of a coffee can works) to the peizo transducer. The metal sheet act like an ear drum and provides a better transfer of the stick energy to the transducer. If you did not do something similar, it would explain why you had trouble.

Vox, it has been a while since I signed up, but I am pretty sure the password came within minutes.

Cordura, that brain looks pretty cool. But for probably $200 or less you can pick up a used TD-5 or Alesis D4 which has the advantages of 1) being tried and tested and 2) being able to generate sounds on their own (no need for external sampler).

"Bottom line is I wouldn't do live gigs without a real monitoring rig, but for recording I have found a way to get the right sound for any song with just a little tweeking of the module"
I agree completely!

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Neirbo...

I just bought the Piezo Transducer elements... Radio Shack doesn't carry them anymore up here... But I found them at a surplus store....

Basically a brass disk with a whitish (ceramic?) center... No wires

Did you have to solder the wires to yours, or was it pre-wired one?... If so, can you elaborate on how to solder one up succesfully....

And what type foam did you use?.. I was on the forum there rading and a few people describe it as the foam for underneath carpetting..???

Joe

 

[elevate]

Vox - If you're having a hard time finding piezos, I used "acoustic guitar tuner pickups," is what the package said. I just busted em open and used the actual piezo - had a 1/4" plug already hooked up.

 

[VOXVENDOR]

Thanks for the tip elevate...

I just bought a shitload of piezos..... If I need more, I will keep that in mind..

Joe

 

[neirbo]

Vox,

The ones I bought had wires attached. One wire attaches to the inner circle (the ceramic looking disk) the other to the outer rim that looks metalic. You don't have to worry about a positive or negative end - this is a very simple circuit.

I was trying to find my link to a great electronics store where you can buy like 10 peizos for $10, but I can't find it right now. I'll try to track it down later. They are so cheap that I'd recommend buying 15-20 or so. You are bound to screw a couple up while you learn the ropes (at least I did) and thery are practically free.

As for foam, don't worry too much about the exact type. Different foam thickness or density will affect how the peizo responds, but any module that I know of has the ability to fine tune sensitivity parameters, so all you need to do is get the pad in the ballpark. I used 1/4 inch thick foam that I got from a fabric shop (also available at craft stores) and put one layer on either side of the sheet metal. It worked great and had a nice feel.