Electrical Help --- Ground?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Executivos
  • Start date Start date
frederic said:
Do you guys actually read what I write, or should I not bother?

I never suggested he ground anything to a stake, or to a cold water pipe. I've given him sound advice based on what little we know about his environment.

I merely stated the various ways that grounded was done in the past, long before building codes. Since he's obviously not an electrician, I didn't feel it was necessary to quote pages of NEC to get my point across.
Click to expand...

Frederic,

I wasn't addressing you specifically - however in response to this:
Originally Posted by apl - How is the electrical box grounded?
Click to expand...

you replied:
Either to a cold water pipe (within code, but a bad idea)
Click to expand...

which is technically incorrect - regardless of the fact that you note (and I agree) it's a bad idea - it is not within code to ground the building service panel to a cold (or any other temperature) water pipe.

You also said:
Two prong outlets are grounded, they just don't expose the ground for plugs.
Click to expand...
which also may or may not - be true.

The example I gave you of homes wired in the 50's with 2 wire romex (no ground wire) is a perfect example of this - and I really do know this to be a fact - because I live in one of those homes - and slowly rewire it as I make my way through the remodeling process.

I can tell you for a fact - there was not one gounded box or receptacle in this house when I bought the place - and the house was full of 2 prong outlets.

And yes - I did read all of your posts - as well as the original poster - and it is to him that I suggest he not even consider this himself - his best bet is to move - even having his electrician friend help him could open a can of worms with his landlord.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
Rod Gervais said:
The example I gave you of homes wired in the 50's with 2 wire romex (no ground wire) is a perfect example of this - and I really do know this to be a fact - because I live in one of those homes - and slowly rewire it as I make my way through the remodeling process.
Click to expand...

Out here in the tri-state area (NJ, NY and CT) where I was a contractor almost two decades ago there were PVC covered wires which have the ground in them (current stuff) either white, yellow or green depending who makes it, the BX armored stuff which is everywhere in older homes, and stuff that has the original wiring back to the 30's and earlier, cloth covered two conductor solid wire - no ground. I merely attempted to illustrate this.

I can tell you for a fact - there was not one gounded box or receptacle in this house when I bought the place - and the house was full of 2 prong outlets.
Click to expand...

My entire house (except for my additions) is armored 2 conductor BX... so the casing is the ground and partly why its clamped to the breaker box and the electrical box - ground.

In fact, it was a pita replacing two of the boxes, because somewhere along the way they've changed sizes slightly... the two boxes had to be replaced because they were in a non-iinsulated wall and have been eaten by corrosion... which has been fixed (insulation, etc).
 
frederic said:
In the older styling of wiring, where two prong outlets are everywhere, yes, absolutely.

I've made the assumption that the house wasn't wired in the 1920's or so, in which case it would have cloth covered wriing, and in the outlet box itself (metal) the neutral would have a shunt to the metal box, giving you a fake-ground that way.

If that's the case, he should move. I'd never live in a house that had cloth-covered wiring. It was bad news then, and its worse news now that the cloth is probably dry rotted.

Fire! Fire! Run!
Click to expand...

Hopefully it's not Aluminum wiring. (scary)
 
Gfci

Executivos,

I have some experience with this as my former home was built in 1959 and had two-prong outlets throughout. In my case, non-metallic two-wire conductors fed all outlets so grounding each box would not provide a ground.

Outdated electrical systems are lousy for several reasons but if you're stuck there I recommend replacing the two prong outlets with GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupters). This will not provide a ground and will not help noise if it exists but it does provide a degree of personal protection and allows you to plug three prong stuff in.

The latest version of the National Electrical Code I have at my disposal is 1999, but as I recall it has been carried through to the current code. Perhaps others could verify.

From 1999 NEC 210-7d3b
"A nongrounding-type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle. These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground". An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit interrupter receptacle."

The labels mentioned above usually come with the GFCIs when you buy them. You need to put them on to indicate that the outlet is not actually grounded. The last sentence from the NEC above just tells you that you can't run a ground wire from the GFCI to other outlets. This would just be perpetuating a non-existant ground.

Does anyone have comments on the above?

Best of luck
 
PhiloBeddoe said:
The latest version of the National Electrical Code I have at my disposal is 1999, but as I recall it has been carried through to the current code. Perhaps others could verify.
Click to expand...

What you quoted holds true today, even though I believe it to be a completely ignoramous idea. But, it is code.


I say ignoramous because we all know EVERYONE reads labels (that was sarcasm :-D)
 
Maybe it would help to say, one would not want to add a second seperate ground source.

You "could" augment or add to, or enhance the existing ground system with additional earth contact or connections to known ground sources like cold water pipes to lower the ground to earth potential but adding a new or seperate ground to which his equipment could be bonded to would be a big mistake.
 
Fair enough. Labels such as "No Equipment Ground" mean absolutely nothing to most people. However, most people would also treat a two prong outlet just as the thread initiator suggested by using an adapter that does nothing besides land the ground plug. A GFCI is an improvement over an adapter.

I was just trying to give this person a realistic and legal option as to how the situation might be handled. Obviously the whole electrical system would be replaced in a perfect world flush with cash.
 
PhiloBeddoe said:
From 1999 NEC 210-7d3b
"A nongrounding-type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle. These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground". An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit interrupter receptacle."

The labels mentioned above usually come with the GFCIs when you buy them. You need to put them on to indicate that the outlet is not actually grounded. The last sentence from the NEC above just tells you that you can't run a ground wire from the GFCI to other outlets. This would just be perpetuating a non-existant ground.

Does anyone have comments on the above?

Best of luck
Click to expand...

That's a passage I have never even seen mentioned in a code update class. I'll have questions for the instructor next time about this issue. He's a 50-year-plus EE/contractor/inspector. I'll need to see if I can find some NFPA footnotes that may explain why they allow that as an option. To people in the know, the NO EQUIPMENT GROUND warning means something. To Joe Blow with a Craetive card and a burning desire it may look like salvation.

I dunno. Never come across this installation technique anywhere. I work on stuff a lot more modern than two-wire resi.

Rewiring a house built 50 years ago to get to code/21st century is gonna cost a bundle. If you owned it and were gonna live in it for 5-7 years it would pay for itself and actually be a selling point. Turnkey rocks.;)And the electrical is only a part of it. You have misc. Drywall to patch as well, then you gotta paint.

Continue tomorrow. Too FU to type effeciently.:D
 
c7sus said:
You have misc. Drywall to patch as well, then you gotta paint.
Click to expand...

Electricians amaze me how they can pull wire by making little holes in the wall, and work with the power on. Me, I gotta turn off the power, rip walls open, cuss a lot, and then "discover" that I turned off the wrong breaker :eek:
 
According to OSHA there's no such thing as "hot work" anymore.

More and more contractors are moving to a "100%" policy of no hot work.

Of course, the policy only stands until they need something worked on and don't wanna turn it off.

That's my least fav scenario. You have "read and understand" the company work rules, right? Then they ask you to do them a "favor"............ then you get fried and they say "Why we would never ask any of our people to do such a thing......... you can see right here in our company policy..........which he signed, BTW..........."
 
The Code reference goes back to at least 1996 -

210.7(d)(3)c. also reads: "A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground fault circuit-interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground fault circuit-interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground". An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles."

So not only can you use them to replace individual outlets - you can also use a GFCI breaker to protect a line - and then add grounded outlets to that circuit - or install a GFCI outlet before the end of a circuit and then install grounded receptacles after that receptacle.

As to why they would allow this - tis simple - even though the fault will not run to ground - the detector will still sense the short trying to run from the hot leg to ground - and the GFCI will trip - they work with or without the ground to help save lives.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
electricity and the home studio

Hello there,
Can I change the subject slightly? Regarding power for the studio, what would you recommend for isolating one existing room from the rest of the house? I have some experience with electricty (apprenticed for a couple years...a while back) so I understand the basic concepts and safety rules. I have a house with 2 15amp circuits feeding the entire upstairs (4 bedrooms/2 baths) and it really doesn't have enough support for me to convert one of the BRs into a studio. I was thinking of adding a couple 20amp circuits and maybe another 15amp for the lights. Any suggetsions?
 
My home studio, which is a garage loft, has a single 15A breaker for the room.

I relocated the feed from the far side of the room to near the entry door, to a few switches, which provide power for the outlets that existed, as well as all the lighting in the room and the vocal booth, including an overhead flourescent I use mostly for general clean-up (its nice and bright and energy efficient), as well as all the track lighting on dimmers.

Then, I drew two additional circuits, 20A each, to the same area near the entry door, to additional switches, which provide on/off functionality for the recording gear and computer equipment. The front of the room is on one 20A circuit, and the rackmount gear in the middle of the room in the producer's desk, is on the other 20A circuit.

I seperated it into two circuits because I wanted to never hit the limits of the breakers. Since I have large hard drive arrays on my hard disk recorders (of which I have eight) as well as the various samplers, I wanted room in the current capacity for power on surges due to hard drivers spinning up where they draw more current, briefly.

I figured it out at one point, but I think I have 12A on one circuit, and 11A on the other.

The wiring in the walls that I added, can carry 50A no problem. I did this on purpose because I mounted in the crawl space an oil filled 50A isolation transformer, that takes in 240V, providing two legs of 120V @ 25A. I intend to have a breaker box between the isolation transformer in the room, in fact its mounted in the crawl space already, I just haven't gotten the permits to hook it up yet.

This way my studio is isolated to the extreme.
 
Electricity & the Home Studio

Thanks for the info Frederick, I really appreciate it. I'm a little unclear on your layout though. You have one 15 amp circuit to the studio, I assume this was an existing run for the lights?, and 2 20 amp circuits that you added and are in the process of putting on a separate 50 amp isolation transformer? Am I getting this right? Wow, how much does a transformer like that cost and does it really do the job? Thanks again for your help.
R
 
c7sus said:
Rewiring a house built 50 years ago to get to code/21st century is gonna cost a bundle. If you owned it and were gonna live in it for 5-7 years it would pay for itself and actually be a selling point. Turnkey rocks.;)And the electrical is only a part of it. You have misc. Drywall to patch as well, then you gotta paint.
Click to expand...

Well, if you're really stubborn, you may be able to do it without any drywall cutting, assuming the holes in the studs are big enough and it doesn't round too many corners. Take the new 3-wire, plastic-jacketed power wire. Strip a couple of inches. Solder the old wires to two of the three new wires. Trim the ground off. Add masking tape in a cone shape. Now go to the breaker box, find the right wire and pull really hard. :D

Sorry, couldn't resist.
 
I think I'd use a Western Union joint rather than solder.

But I'm pretty sure the outcome would be the same. :p
 
rblooz said:
Thanks for the info Frederick, I really appreciate it. I'm a little unclear on your layout though. You have one 15 amp circuit to the studio, I assume this was an existing run for the lights?, and 2 20 amp circuits that you added and are in the process of putting on a separate 50 amp isolation transformer? Am I getting this right? Wow, how much does a transformer like that cost and does it really do the job? Thanks again for your help.
R
Click to expand...

Sorry I wasn't clear.

15A existing feed that I reused for the lighting and various non-critical outlets around the room (things like answering machine, TV, vcr, that kinda stuff). Originally, it was attached to one outlet in the far corner of the room.

I then added two 20A circuits that currently are not attached to the isolation transformer, yet. I need permits, and time, to hook that up.

I've used isolation transformers, and yes, they work extremely well for noise isolation (from the rest of the house, and the mains).

The transformer was a freebie from a friend's machine shop closing down... new they probably sell in the $2000-$2500 price give or take a few hundred.
 
I was wondering if that iso xfmr was a freebie. I was figuring about $2k for something like that.

That's the way to go, for sure. If you can find a transformer that doesn't break the budget!
 
wow... I was totally unaware that this thread was going on for so long. I forgot homerecording only sends you one reminder of a new post even if there are multiple replys.

So I went to look at a grounding rod and that thing was huge---didn't look easy to install. The guitarist in the band I'm working with right now works with his dad as a commercial electrician. I had him come over to take a look.

Here's what we found:

I beleive it's the 2 wire romex

the bathroom outlet has a 3 prong outlet but not the gfci kind. there are no labels saying "no ground" and we opened it up...there's no ground.

we went to the box ouside. from the panel there is a new green wire attached---looks like a ground right? followed it up through the conduit to another box that was hard to open (about 2 feet up) and the wire was just chillin---ie: not attached to ANYTHING. purely cosmetic for some kind of inspection?

The story with this place is that it is a big house probably built in the 50s?, 2 stories. the owner closed up the inside staircase, added an external staircaise and cut a hole for a door and now it's two apts. there are 2 more structures in the back, which are seperate from this building. the power comes in to a VERY old looking box, but then there are 4 much newer boxes each labeled for the different addresses here---my point is that a lot of newer electrical work was done in the last 10-15 years...would that have required updates to code and therefore been the inspiration for faking that wire?

Anyway I talked to my friend and he said it would be cheaper to hire a residential electrician then have him do it with another guy from his dad's company because commercial electricians usually get paid more. (he's only been doing it for a few years and said he'd need help from another worker---thats why I can't get a great deal from him)

I had a residential electrician come out and he said $400 to run a new circuit to the room for my studio equipment...properly grounded and isolated from the other stuff. Oh yeah..the box has 2 breakers. one for ALL of the plugs and one for ALL of the lights. I assume that this was a bad idea to keep it like that.

SO. $400, new circuit, things will be safe and I wont need to worry that an appliance in the other room is causing noise problems on my recording.

As for c7sus...I assume I am the "joe blow with a creative card" from your post? Just because I'm not a union electrician and don't understand how to run electrical properly, doesn't mean I don't know about recording. I'm making enough money doing my recording that I can afford pay someone else to do it, IF I need to. I asked here first to see if that was required. Jeez. everytime I come back here I remember why I stopped...because mixed in with some very cool helpful people, some of you think you are tom lord-alge with an ssl and a wall full of platinum records.

thanks everyone else for helping out. I sincerely appreciate it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top