Electrical Help --- Ground?

E

Executivos

New member
I just moved to a new place and began to setup my studio here. There aren't many outlets so I thought it might be a problem. I finally went to start plugging stuff in and realized the outlets are not grounded! It's an old house, I'm renting the top floor. 2 prong outlets all around.

What can I do, what problems will be caused etc. if I just use one of those 3 prong to 2 prong adapters? (I assume that it's REALLY bad to do that)

I'm starting a new ep with a band and the guitarist is an electrician. Am I going to be required to work out some deal with him to help me get up and running? Am I better off moving?
 
Two prong outlets are grounded, they just don't expose the ground for plugs.

Replace the 2-prong duplex with a three-prong duplex, and the ground will be passed from the metal box to the metal mounting tabs of the duplex, to the third prong of the duplex.

Now you have a grounded circuit. Never use ground adaptors for anything long term.

Anyone with a flathead, and a phillips screwdriver, can replace an outlet. Just remember to turn off the breaker first.

If all your gear is on one side of the room, you can solve grounding issues between the equipment by using a power strip off one outlet with all your gear (assuming the current draw is less than the breaker rating).
 
thanks! I was told I could create a ground by driving a grounding "stake" into the dirt outside and running a wire up to the outlet in here. Is that a better way then the one you suggested? I don't mind the extra work if it's the best way.

how to I check the how many amps the outlet can handle?

so if I open up the outlet would there be 2 or 3 wires? how do I wire the new outlet? (I'm sorry I really don't understand this stuff that much)
 
Your breaker box in the basement already has a ground that goes either to a cold water pipe (within code, but stupid) or a ground stake either under the foundation just outside the wall/corner the breaker box is on.

Two prong or three prong outlets have nothing to do with electrical box ground, which is what the stake is for. Two seperate concepts, two seperate parts of the system.

>>>how to I check the how many amps the outlet can handle?

It will say on the back of the outlet, embossed into the bakelight casing. If it does not indicate maximum current, its 15A.

>>>so if I open up the outlet would there be 2 or 3 wires? how do I
>>>wire the new outlet? (I'm sorry I really don't understand this stuff
>>>that much)[/QUOTE]

If you have a two prong outlet now, there is two wires, a black one and a white one. White is neutral, Black is hot. The silvery colored screw is neutral, the brass colored screw is hot.

Ground is passed from the electrical box to the frame of the electrical outlet to the actual outlet itself automatically when you screw the outlet back into the metal box.
 
frederic said:
Ground is passed from the electrical box to the frame of the electrical outlet to the actual outlet itself automatically when you screw the outlet back into the metal box.
Click to expand...

How is the electrical box grounded?
 
Executivos said:
thanks! I was told I could create a ground by driving a grounding "stake" into the dirt outside and running a wire up to the outlet in here. Is that a better way then the one you suggested? I don't mind the extra work if it's the best way.

how to I check the how many amps the outlet can handle?

so if I open up the outlet would there be 2 or 3 wires? how do I wire the new outlet? (I'm sorry I really don't understand this stuff that much)
Click to expand...

That grounding method is illegal and very ill-advised.

Personally, I'd find another place to live.

Just from your posts here I'd say you should talk to your landlord about hiring somebody to do any upgrades. If you're not qualified you really shouldn't be putting your hands into residential electrical work. How would you feel if you performed work and later residents died in a fire stemming from your electrical work?

It could happen. And it's not worth the liability or risk.

Chalk it up as a life lesson in checking out the pad better before you move in.
 
apl said:
How is the electrical box grounded?
Click to expand...


Either to a cold water pipe (within code, but a bad idea) or to a stake outside. Ground also ties to neutral, in single phase home systems.
 
frederic said:
Either to a cold water pipe (within code, but a bad idea) or to a stake outside. Ground also ties to neutral, in single phase home systems.
Click to expand...

So you run a separate wire from the box to the house's ground? Or you just let neutral be ground?
 
Those two prong plugs are great for a quick fix when you have a ground loop. I always take a few when I'm running PA for a live show.
 
deepwater said:
Those two prong plugs are great for a quick fix when you have a ground loop. I always take a few when I'm running PA for a live show.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
Right up until you kill someone or yourself, they are great.

Any ground loop problem can and should be solved other ways.
 
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apl said:
So you run a separate wire from the box to the house's ground? Or you just let neutral be ground?
Click to expand...

Since you have two prong outlets, your house/apartment is very old, wired before the 1960's.

You have three wires coming into the house... two hots, and a neutral.

The two hots attach to the circuit breaker busses, runnng down the length of the box with the breakers snapping onto that. 240V across the two hots, 120V from hot to neutral. Depending on the actual year the breaker box was installed. the neutral is tied to the metal casing of the box by a ground buss bar, or a neutral buss bar. Essentially its the same thing, just that ground buss bars also have ground wires should there be any.

Anyway... hot (black) and neutral (white) wires are run from the circuit breakers to teh outlets, in a metal-jacketed cable - the metal jacket is mechanically clamped to the breaker box, as well as the outlet box. This extends the ground from the breaker box to the remote outlet box. There's your ground.

When you screw in the new outlet, the bracket of the outlet is tied to the third prong, further extending the ground from the metal box to the outlet.
 
apl said:
So the grouding depends on metal jacketed cable.
Click to expand...

In the older styling of wiring, where two prong outlets are everywhere, yes, absolutely.

I've made the assumption that the house wasn't wired in the 1920's or so, in which case it would have cloth covered wriing, and in the outlet box itself (metal) the neutral would have a shunt to the metal box, giving you a fake-ground that way.

If that's the case, he should move. I'd never live in a house that had cloth-covered wiring. It was bad news then, and its worse news now that the cloth is probably dry rotted.

Fire! Fire! Run!
 
Frederick, you are leading these guys down a dead-end street.

You guys need to get the National Electrical Code and read the Article on Grounding.

There are ONLY two acceptable grounding connection points in ANY electrical installation.

Either at the panel, or at the seperately-derived (transformer) source.

THAT'S IT!

There is no provision for scabbing grounds off water pipes or ground rods and running that ground to ANY DEVICES WHATSOEVER.

Get the NEC, and read it and understand before you perform ANY WORK.
 
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You guys also need to understand that the NEC is written to be the MINIMUM acceptable standard.

Notice the emphasis on the word MINIMUM.

Jurisdictions can add language that strengthens the code, but in most cases they won't accept anything less than what the code calls for.

There are two functions of the NEC:

1. Protect life.

2. Protect property.

Follow the NEC, use good materials and install your work in a workman-like manner and you will achieve objectives 1 & 2 of the NEC.

Don't, and you won't.
 
apl said:
So the grounding depends on metal jacketed cable.
Click to expand...

Apl,

There were many houses built in the 1950's that predate any building codes - and used 2 wire romex cable that did not include a ground wire. There is no easy way in these buildings to create a grounding path without adding a ground wire to the circuit.

In these cases the boxes are NOT grounded, and creating a shunt wire connection to the nuetral is not an acceptable method of creating a ground. Neutral wires can potentially carry power - and thus doing so could actually provide power to the box itself.

In CT one year we had 24 miles of neutral cables stolen off of telephone poles.

When you cut and remove that neutral the return source to the power company is gone - and under the right conditions this could cause the power to return through the opposite hot leg (like the old electric ovens used to be wired.)

I actually experienced this once after sale of a new condo unit - the couple freaked out and thought their condo was haunted........ when I began testing things - I fould that all of the outlets registered 220 volts.

Not good for computers or other gear...........

And folks - let's not forget the reason for grounding either -

Grounds were added to devices so that in the event that any electrical source within the device were to ground out against the metalic body of the device - the body of the device would not become live and electrocute people.

Also - the tying of water pipes (as well as structural steel - copper drain pipes - anything interconnecting within the building that could somehow - some way - carry current) is "bonding" those elements to ground.

They are not EVER intended to become the gounding source themselves.

Every once in a while c7 and I end up on the same page - this is one of those times.

If you are not a qualified electrician (which does not mean licensed) then you should not even ATTEMPT to get involved in this.

Sincerely,

Rod
 
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c7sus said:
Frederick, you are leading these guys down a dead-end street.
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Do you guys actually read what I write, or should I not bother?

I never suggested he ground anything to a stake, or to a cold water pipe. I've given him sound advice based on what little we know about his environment.

I merely stated the various ways that grounded was done in the past, long before building codes. Since he's obviously not an electrician, I didn't feel it was necessary to quote pages of NEC to get my point across.

Based on time periods where metal boxes were starting to be used, they used armored cable through and through, and THAT is the ground to the outlet box.

I deliberately included the cloth-wire exclusion as that's the exception to the rule, as far as grounding - there isn't any.

I don't mind debates (even heated ones) but if you're going to not read what I type, or misquote me, I'm wasting my time.
 
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Maybe I misunderstood, but that's sure how it read to me.

I don't like to give anybody any "ideas"............ know what I mean???
 
c7sus said:
Maybe I misunderstood, but that's sure how it read to me.

I don't like to give anybody any "ideas"............ know what I mean???
Click to expand...

I think you did misread... but that's okay. my apologies for being pissy about it. I don't sleep much anymore...

And yes I know what you mean...
 
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