effects loop MOD on tube amp

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metalj

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Anyone out there know if making a modification on the effects loop of my Hughs and Kettner Tube amp will hurt the tone or if it is a really easy mod?

this is the amp and its specs..
http://hughes-and-kettner.com/scripts/products.php?mode=ts&id=93

it is for me the best sounding tube amp i have ever heard so i am in the process of buying it. my local music store let me gig with it a couple times, one at a small venue one at a big venue and it is absolutely clean sounding and just better than i ever imagined a amp could sound like.

one small problem though, the "send" on the effects loop also doubles as a "direct out". it is just that, both, no button to switch between the two (see web link). as a result the output of the "send" is way way too hot. It is clipping any effects pedal that is hooked up to the effects loop. unless you run it at really low volume.

my question is.... can this me modified to just be a straight clean effects loop without changing the beautiful sound of the amp so my effects are clean sounding and i can run the amp at fuller volume (the louder the amp the more it clips), and is it fairly easy to do by a local music store tech?

It may or maynot effect the warranty, but i dont care, this is the amp i want, i just want the effects loop to work normal.

thanks for reading. to understand the amp better please check the web link, it explains it better than i can.

yep
 
You could run a pad or something before your pedals. That would tame the signal enough to run your pedals in the loop.
In any case, the problem is if you drop the level of the loop, that will drop the signal to the power amp. That will give you less power, less volume.

The thing is, most pedals are looking to see an instrument level signal, and be run in front of your amp, not in the loop. Someone may be able to put in a make-up gain stage after the loop if you pad it down, but it will require another tube, or some solid-state device, and a fair amount of work.
 
boingoman said:
You could run a pad or something before your pedals. That would tame the signal enough to run your pedals in the loop.
In any case, the problem is if you drop the level of the loop, that will drop the signal to the power amp. That will give you less power, less volume.

The thing is, most pedals are looking to see an instrument level signal, and be run in front of your amp, not in the loop. Someone may be able to put in a make-up gain stage after the loop if you pad it down, but it will require another tube, or some solid-state device, and a fair amount of work.
Click to expand...

thanks for the input.
the owners manual says this....

"it is equipped with a serial effects loop. This means that the entire preamp signal is routed to the FX device and processed there." "for this reason, use only "high quality signal processors"

what the heck does that mean ???

and it simply states that if the loop is clipping your processor then , "simply" turn down the input on your processor.

I did turn down the input, all the way, and it is still clipping. should the tecknical output of the "send on the loop" match the input of the pedal.

the manual says the output of the send is.....6 dbv/ 100 Ohms. Is that any different than most amps. All i know is the louder i turn the amp up, the more it clipps, especiall on the clean channel.

IM LOST MAN ?????

thanks for anyone who might be able to help.
 
It means that the pedals are better in front of the loop as they can't handle the output. Try a DI box in front of the pedals, one of the Behringer DI100's will reduce the power but then again it might not be enough to feed in to the power amp. Far simpler go guitar - pedals - amp.
 
metalj said:
thanks for the input.
the owners manual says this....

"it is equipped with a serial effects loop. This means that the entire preamp signal is routed to the FX device and processed there." "for this reason, use only "high quality signal processors"

what the heck does that mean ???

and it simply states that if the loop is clipping your processor then , "simply" turn down the input on your processor.

I did turn down the input, all the way, and it is still clipping. should the tecknical output of the "send on the loop" match the input of the pedal.

the manual says the output of the send is.....6 dbv/ 100 Ohms. Is that any different than most amps. All i know is the louder i turn the amp up, the more it clipps, especiall on the clean channel.

IM LOST MAN ?????

thanks for anyone who might be able to help.
Click to expand...

The thing is, an FX loop takes its output from an intermediate gain stage of your amp, so it's going to be hot, and if you dial down the strength of it to where instrument level FX can handle it, then the signal you'll pass back to the return will be much lower than it should be. You'll lose a lot of what you like about the amp, I'll wager.

Stomp box FX should be run on the front end of the amp, not in the FX loop. They need to operate in the instrument level portion of the gain structure of your setup. The only FX you should run in the loop are rack type units that are designed to run at line level.
 
I hear you guys, but??????

Im not running stomp boxes. im running a multi effects signal processor that i use only for eq, delay, chorus, flange. Other than the eq, you cant run the others in front of the amp then distort it can you ??.

it will sound horrible having a delay pedal going into my amp then distorting it with the amp, hence the effects loop placing the effects after the preamp is my understanding.

thank you for you help.
 
metalj said:
It is clipping any effects pedal that is hooked up to the effects loop. unless you run it at really low volume
Click to expand...
I guess that's why we thought you were using pedals.
The mixer route that I suggested is still a good option. Another way would be to build a little gizmo with 2 quarter inch jacks and a potentiometer in between so that you can adjust the volume from the FX send.
 
metalj said:
I hear you guys, but??????

Im not running stomp boxes. im running a multi effects signal processor that i use only for eq, delay, chorus, flange. Other than the eq, you cant run the others in front of the amp then distort it can you ??.

it will sound horrible having a delay pedal going into my amp then distorting it with the amp, hence the effects loop placing the effects after the preamp is my understanding.

thank you for you help.
Click to expand...

First, try it (if you haven't already) in front of the amp instead of postulating as to what it might sound like. Lots of folks run time domain FX (delay, flange, chorus, etc.) into distortion and like it just fine.

Second, if you truly hate the sound of the FX box between axe and amp, and if your FX box has to have instrument instead of line input, then you're probably going to have to bite the bullet and make some sort of a gear change. Even if you are able to cool the input signal to the FX box to where it doesn't clip, its output will most likely be too weak to drive the power section of the amp. It's a cruel world sometimes... ;^)
 
Check the manual... it says, "unless your going for bizarre lo-fi effects, distortion devices are not designed for use in an effect loop". I would say try removing the distortion from your effects chain and see if that changes anything.
 
ocnor said:
I guess that's why we thought you were using pedals.
The mixer route that I suggested is still a good option. Another way would be to build a little gizmo with 2 quarter inch jacks and a potentiometer in between so that you can adjust the volume from the FX send.
Click to expand...

From what he says, it appears to me that his FX box operates with instrument/mic level input, which implies that it also has instrument level output. Even if he can scale down his FX send to instrument level to avoid clipping the unit, the output of the unit still probably won't have the strength to drive the power section of the amp.
 
I agree with GGUNN. You may just have to give in and change gear altogether. I've never seen anybody use one of those multi effect boxes just for the delay, etc... Unless you're using it for all your sounds ahead of the preamp, you'll probably want to shitcan it for some units that agree with your amp! I predict that any kind of fiddling with the signal level in your loop is just gonna kill the sound of tha amp...maybe not - but I wouldn't want to fool with it.
 
Easto said:
Check the manual... it says, "unless your going for bizarre lo-fi effects, distortion devices are not designed for use in an effect loop". I would say try removing the distortion from your effects chain and see if that changes anything.
Click to expand...

The distortion he was speaking of is preamp distortion in the amplifier, not in the FX chain.
 
metalj said:
I hear you guys, but??????

Im not running stomp boxes. im running a multi effects signal processor that i use only for eq, delay, chorus, flange. Other than the eq, you cant run the others in front of the amp then distort it can you ??.

it will sound horrible having a delay pedal going into my amp then distorting it with the amp, hence the effects loop placing the effects after the preamp is my understanding.

thank you for you help.
Click to expand...
If your multi effects processor is one that was meant for you to plug your guitar into, it won't work. You need a line level effects box. These Boss and Digitech floor units are just a bunch of stomp boxes shoved into one package. It is meant to replace a bunch of stomp boxes. You need something like what you would use in a PA or in the studio.
 
Farview said:
If your multi effects processor is one that was meant for you to plug your guitar into, it won't work. You need a line level effects box. These Boss and Digitech floor units are just a bunch of stomp boxes shoved into one package. It is meant to replace a bunch of stomp boxes. You need something like what you would use in a PA or in the studio.
Click to expand...

ahhh, i did not know that. I thought they put the same stuff in the floor pedals as they did the rack stuff. ill give that a try to see how it works.

any suggestions on which one to try? I was thinking the TC Gmajor was recomended to me by another brother of this web site. But then i have to get a stupid midi pedal too, which im not crazy about since it is a off brand.

thanks
 
The g-major is another guitar processor. That one is designed to plug your guitar into as well. The guys I have seen use it, just run it into a power amp and a 4x12. There is no guitar head in the chain. What effects are you trying to get?
 
Farview said:
The g-major is another guitar processor. That one is designed to plug your guitar into as well. The guys I have seen use it, just run it into a power amp and a 4x12. There is no guitar head in the chain. What effects are you trying to get?
Click to expand...
That is just wrong. The guys that you saw must have been idiots. The G-Major is meant to be used with a Preamp and Power amp, or in the FX loop of a head or combo. The inputs are balanced line inputs not guitar inputs so it requires some sort of preamp. It also has a switching relay so that you can change amp channels with a midi controller. http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=827
 
Farview said:
The g-major is another guitar processor. That one is designed to plug your guitar into as well. The guys I have seen use it, just run it into a power amp and a 4x12. There is no guitar head in the chain. What effects are you trying to get?
Click to expand...

normal rythm, i use only a pinch of reverb from the amp itself

my cover band may require me to use chorus, or added reverb, and flange to try to match the sound of the artist who originally played it. Im not going for a dead on immitaion, just so its sounds close.

the biggest deal is my leads. I use a short delay on most solos with a volume boost usually coming from the eq, or compressor(thats inside my multieffects unit). just something to bring the solo to the front of the mix so i do not have to rely on the sound tech to do it for me.

but other than that, i run a very simple set up. just use the amps distortion, and clean channel which sounds awsome and i want to just add "effects" with a volume boosts when i need it either together or seperately,(sometimes i solo with no effects, so just a volume boost is all i need).

basically i want to acheive the above with just stepping on one pedal(by using presets), not do a tap dance on several stomp boxes. if that makes any sense.

thank you very much for trying to help me i appreciate it.
 
ocnor said:
That is just wrong. The guys that you saw must have been idiots. The G-Major is meant to be used with a Preamp and Power amp, or in the FX loop of a head or combo. The inputs are balanced line inputs not guitar inputs so it requires some sort of preamp. It also has a switching relay so that you can change amp channels with a midi controller. http://www.tcelectronic.com/Default.asp?Id=827
Click to expand...

I must have confused it with something else.
 
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