dust

[elly-d]

hi, i am pretty new to recording with tape. i have done a couple of projects on my e-16.

ok so i guess when the tape runs it always makes some 'dust' but how much is it supposed to make? the problem i am having is the outer tracks 1-2 and 15-16 seem to be affected by this (maybe some scraping) and its very visible on the pinch roller with two orange lines appearing after a few minutes play. after an hour of record and playback the high ends stop coming through and a cleandown is needed. its happen with every tape i have used so far (rgmi911 and quantegy 456) so is it sticky shed or bad rollers or what? i always clean thoroughly between tapes and from day to day. any ideas?

 

[avieth]

I have this problem on my Fostex R8 with Ampex 457.

I've heard that RMG tape doesn't do this though...

 

[sweetbeats]

This is not sticky shed. Sticky shed is gummy/sticky...hence sticky shed.

How old is the tape you are using?

The first place I would check is the tape path alignment and for any rough or sharp edges in the path, especially on the guides.

If you look closely and systematically along the tape path you should be able to see where the problem is.

How worn are the heads? If your heads are worn/grooved and (not being familiar with the E-16 heads) there aren't cutouts at the edge of the tape path on the heads to keep the tape from riding around in a groove as the tape wears that can cause it too. Look at your heads. Are there little slots cut in the heads at the "top" and "bottom" of the heads?

 

[elly-d]

yep i didnt think it was sticky shed, but it is excessive shed. it was set up and calibrated by a guy that knows what hes doing and i trust him, although it could have been knocked out of alignment in transit. i suspect the first guide actually, but i will check tomorrow. the tape is brand new and it happens with the quantegy and the rgmi. its the fact that it builds up so quick and affects the sound that bothers me.

thanks i will check tomorrow and report back. oh i have been told that i have 80% life left in the heads they are worn and the tape does sit in a channel i guess, i wouldnt want to move the heads though.

 

[sweetbeats]

elly-d, sorry for the frustration you are experiencing...

Yes...do keep us posted.

I was trying to find a shot of the rec/play head on the E-16 but I can't find a clear one to see if it has the "edge-slots" cut in it.

Go to the What BAD HEADS Look Like!!! page at www.analoguerules.com.

Maybe you've seen this before, but the last two pictures and text on that page talk about the edge slots:

"...'edge-slots' which are grooves cut at the top and bottom of the head
at the upper and lower sections of the tape path... so the edges of the
tape rides in the grooved-out area and will not cut ridges in the heads.
The ridges in this image will collect tape oxide, get dirty and if the
tape was cut slightly larger than the wear pattern has been cut into the
head, the tape could not ride in the groove correctly....
causing all sorts of problems."

Elly-d, did something happen in transit that would cause you to question if it was "knocked out of alignment"? Did you personally transport it?

If the tape is brand new, and it is happening with two different brands of tape, I would say, sight unseen, that your tape path is either seriously mis-aligned, or you have an abnormal wear issue.

I can't really say more without seeing some pictures, but please know, at least in my experience, tape does not "always makes 'dust'"...the only dust on my Tascam 58 is whatever fell out of the air in my studio. I recently set it up and noticed a small orange line on the pinch roller adjacent to track 1, but it was from my older calibration tape and I rectified the issue because I found the cause and it was a slight tape path alignment issue.

Do you have a manual for your E-16? Typically mechanical tape path alignment is not complicated (and I'm talking about the guides here...not mechanical alignment of the heads; azimuth, zenith and wrap which do require special test gear...) Guides can usually be done with readily available and affordable tools.

i have been told that i have 80% life left in the heads they are worn and the tape does sit in a channel i guess

Was this substantiated by a head report or just somebody's opinion? Be wary of the latter. Again, refer to the BAD HEADS page at analoguerules.com. It shows you how you can at least visually diagnose if your heads are shot or if there are other mechanical alignment issues going on.

i wouldnt want to move the heads though.

Yes. That is right. Unless you know what you are doing and/or have related experience and the right equipment and manual to go along with it, I wouldn't touch the position of the heads, but do have it addressed if there is a problem that needs addressing.

Hang in there and, again, keep us posted. We'll be watching.

 

[cjacek]

I agree with everything sweetbeats said [great stuff].

elly-d: please provide some close up photos of the heads, tape lifters and guides [on your E-16].

------

 

[Beck]

There have been reports now and then of heavier than normal oxide shedding with RMGI… there are some bad batches out there.

456/457 isn’t known for producing heavy oxide dust. However, I can’t say for sure if this includes Quantegy made 2005 and later. There were some quality control (mostly slitting) issues after the bankruptcy and reorganization in 2005 until the company finally threw in the towel, so I recommend Ampex/Quantegy made from 1995 through 2004 for best results. Tape made before 1995 will likely have sticky-shed, and tape made after 2004 may have quality issues of various kinds.

As far as mechanical issues, I’m not sure if the E16 has gutters cut for the tape edges, but I do know the Tascam MSR-16 does. Edge tracks often exhibit problems first as the head wears. Sometimes this can be remedied by physical adjustment of the head or you may need a relap.

You could also have oxide caked deeply in the outer grooves. Sometimes it takes a magnifying glass and a toothpick to get the job done on a neglected head.

 

[Beck]

Ok... it looks like that's a negative on the E16 having edge grooves (gutters). I found a pic in my Fostex folder, of all places. I really need to learn to look on my own hard drive first... it's a bit larger than the Internet at this point.

I'm thinking too it may be sharp edges further back in the tape path, unless the head looks considerably worse than the one in the pic.

 

[sweetbeats]

mmmm...Beck...nice work.

So, yeah, elly-d, we need some visuals...

 

[elly-d]

ok i am off to the studio with a camera, and a bunch of tools and cleaning equipment. i will try and get them up today or tomorrow. thanks for all the info, i will post later.

cheers.

 

[elly-d]

ok, sorry for the delay. hope we can pick up.

the tape is rubbing on the edge of the spool as it unwinds. (rubbing on the side nearest to me, i think thats track one rubbing? i dont know which way the tracks go) and it is rubbing on the 1st tension arm guide, again at the nearest point to the viewer. so if i adjust the tension are guide away from me, that should make the tape wind back onto the spool straighter. but it would rub even more on this guide? everything else in the path looks good, no sharp edges and no excessive wear. although i am gonna rotate the guides i think.

i took my camera to take pics and found someone had nicked my batteries, so the pics will have to wait.

 

[sweetbeats]

elly-d,

This is how I got my tape path in line...Get a good flashlight and a magnifying glass:

1. Make sure the guides keep the tape centered on the heads and don't allow the tape to wander. You'll want to make sure of what Fostex indicates for how the tape is supposed to ride in the guides (i.e. for my Tascam deck Tascam says for the tape to just touch the bottom of the first guide, the top of the second, and the bottom of the third, the bottom being closest to the deck). There should be no buckling or curling.

2. If, when you have the guides doing their best to keep the tape centered and not wandering, there is curling or wandering at either of the outermost guides (the guides closest to the takeup or supply reel), then that's when you adjust the tension arms, so that the tape isn't being pulled away or toward the deck by the tension arm based on where you have the guides set.

3. If you get #1 and #2 all happy, but the tape is rubbing on the reel flange, then you need to adjust the reel table height.

Since one effects the other, to get it setup right you have to go through it a couple times maybe. The magnifying glass and flashlight really help to identify if the tape is staying where it is supposed to in the guide without being squeezed at all. I've found that not only pointing the light right at the guide, but also shining the beam parallel with the tape at each step in the path (so that you can see the tape surface illuminated to see what the tape is doing) really helps.

In the end, it should be like the tape doesn't even appear to be moving in the guide path over the heads.

I'm no expert, but I'd suggest doing it in that order because if you go messing with the tension arm height adjustment to address the tape rubbing on the reel, you're going to effect how the tape enters the guide path and that could be hard on the tape as well as effect playback and record response.