Drums

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muusik

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Hi,
My quartet is doing a recording next month and we want to add drums to the recording. We do not want to pay for a drumer to come in and play but want to use midi? how do we get the midi to sound real?

Tim
 
With great difficulty. Usually the only people that can truly approach this are actual drummers themselves who know how drums are played and are supposed to sound.

Seriously, it's probably easier to pay a good drummer than it is to do it with MIDI unless you're already good at that.
 
My method is a big laborious but it can work pretty convincingly:

First off--use a computer based sequencer like Digital Performer (top choice IMHO for any MIDI sequencing *IF* you have a Mac) or Cubase (next best bet or best choice on PC).

Only program patterns that a drummer can physically play. Make sure each roll is different--even if the pattern is the same change the velocity on the hits somewhat.

Hit the entire MIDI track with subtle amounts of random velocity and timing randomization. Like maybe 1-2% on the timing, and maybe 8% on the velocity. Do this for EACH drum seperately. You probably want the kick and snare a little more steady than cymbals, high hats and toms.

Only choose *realistic* drum sounds. Ultra gated kicks that sound like your head being stomped on with a 20 ton elephant are no-no's.

Modify the sounds as well if you can. Don't use ultra common sounds like anything on an Alesis SR16.

Consider choosing two kicks and two snare sounds that are very similar or modifications of your main sound--as if you had "double miked" them. Remember these for later so you can apply some filters or other effects to "duplicate" the sound of a under snare mic, or mic that is on the beater side of the kick drum. Later on submix these into your primary kick and snare sounds as if you merged them in the mixer buss.

Imagine the drum kit playing the song and what components are in it. Where are they at? Draw a diagram if you have to. What types of cymbals do you need? Customize the samples to represent 3 or 4 cymbals and where they are located in the kit. Some of these may be just modified versions of the same cymbal elsewhere in the kit pitched up or down a bit, or eq'd a bit before mixing... DO THIS! It makes things more realistic. Try to give each cymbal it's own character.

Also, the biggest weakness of drum machines are the high hat and cymbals. Do your best to get them sounding realistic... also, human drummers put a LOT of emphasis on how they play their high hat. Make a number of different volume levels AND sustain/attack levels for different high hat "feels". Examples: totally closed high hat, partially open but still tight, partially open and trash, totally open 'mashing the oars', and something for high hat chokes. Also make sure that the high hat chokes correctly and doesn't trigger polyphonic samples--but only one sample at a time. Now use these feels where appropriate in the song. Change it around like a real drummer does. When combined with the random time/velocity you can make it pretty convincing.

Run each sound *INDIVIDUALLY* into a mixer as if they had been mic'd. Process them like normal drums... add a small touch of EQ to further modify the sounds from the stock samples. If you have to buss them in groups do them as: kick / snare / stereo toms / stereo overheads.

Once in your mixer create a fake "overhead" mix down. Put low levels of kick, some snare, high hat (in proper stereo pan), cymbals (stereo panned to taste--not too wide, about 30%), toms (stereo panned appropriately, like 15%ish) and so on. Make it sound a lot like overhead mics--plenty of bleed but in general a good 'snapshot' of the overall kit sound. Be careful with too much kick, toms or snare... you want the cymbals to be predominant. Definately apply reverb to this to give that sense of space. Use the BEST reverb you have available. Reverb will help hide the cymbals and high hat as best they can....

Now throw away the cymbal tracks. :) If you want to do something to the cymbals modify the "overheads" like you would for real.

You would probably want a lot of seperation on the kick, snare and toms so don't use this trick with them. It will save you gating and so on. However, if you want to experiment with making these 'bleed' mixes and then going back and gating them a bit for added realism it can't hurt--it will add a lot of time though....

Anyways, mix down your toms into a stereo file so you can put stereo reverb, eq, compression on them like normal.

Now mix like you would a regular kit. For added realism do a submix of the entire drum kit and compress the snot out of it, mix this back in around -20db or so (i.e. "parallel compression"). Can add some beef.

Basically:

-program it realistically in the sequencer with human feel and personality

-set up the sounds to be realistic

-set yourself up to RECORD and MIX it like real drums

-then treat it like real drum as you mix it

If the high hat/cymals are a real pain you can always leave those out and do THOSE by hand. Set up some overhead mics and a high hat mic and play along with the song.

If you want a "room" sound, run a mix of the entire kit playing sans effects into a PA loudspeaker and turn it up to drummer volume levels in a decent sized, decent sounding room. Mic the room with some condensor mics however you want and record that. Treat those as your room mics and put them in your mix subtly. It will add that 'micro delay' that makes real drums sound realistic when recorded with microphones. Mix that in there at fairly low levels.

If you want a bit more realistic snare, run just the snare thru a monitor and MIC that.

Or do the old 'big speaker with a snare on it' using the snare track to trigger the speaker to vibrate the snare with each hit. Mic that and mix it in there.

Get creative. It can be a lot of fun. You can fool people with drum machines!
 
midi

thanks for that huge post!

what if i already have a drum part made in a midi program such as sibelius or noteworthy composer. How do i make the midi sound, sound real? I have some wave samples of a drum kit? is there a program that replaces these sounds to the sampled ones?
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
My method is a big laborious but it can work pretty convincingly:

First off--use a computer based sequencer like Digital Performer (top choice IMHO for any MIDI sequencing *IF* you have a Mac) or Cubase (next best bet or best choice on PC).

Only program patterns that a drummer can physically play. Make sure each roll is different--even if the pattern is the same change the velocity on the hits somewhat.

Hit the entire MIDI track with subtle amounts of random velocity and timing randomization. Like maybe 1-2% on the timing, and maybe 8% on the velocity. Do this for EACH drum seperately. You probably want the kick and snare a little more steady than cymbals, high hats and toms.

Only choose *realistic* drum sounds. Ultra gated kicks that sound like your head being stomped on with a 20 ton elephant are no-no's.

Modify the sounds as well if you can. Don't use ultra common sounds like anything on an Alesis SR16.

Consider choosing two kicks and two snare sounds that are very similar or modifications of your main sound--as if you had "double miked" them. Remember these for later so you can apply some filters or other effects to "duplicate" the sound of a under snare mic, or mic that is on the beater side of the kick drum. Later on submix these into your primary kick and snare sounds as if you merged them in the mixer buss.

Imagine the drum kit playing the song and what components are in it. Where are they at? Draw a diagram if you have to. What types of cymbals do you need? Customize the samples to represent 3 or 4 cymbals and where they are located in the kit. Some of these may be just modified versions of the same cymbal elsewhere in the kit pitched up or down a bit, or eq'd a bit before mixing... DO THIS! It makes things more realistic. Try to give each cymbal it's own character.

Also, the biggest weakness of drum machines are the high hat and cymbals. Do your best to get them sounding realistic... also, human drummers put a LOT of emphasis on how they play their high hat. Make a number of different volume levels AND sustain/attack levels for different high hat "feels". Examples: totally closed high hat, partially open but still tight, partially open and trash, totally open 'mashing the oars', and something for high hat chokes. Also make sure that the high hat chokes correctly and doesn't trigger polyphonic samples--but only one sample at a time. Now use these feels where appropriate in the song. Change it around like a real drummer does. When combined with the random time/velocity you can make it pretty convincing.

Run each sound *INDIVIDUALLY* into a mixer as if they had been mic'd. Process them like normal drums... add a small touch of EQ to further modify the sounds from the stock samples. If you have to buss them in groups do them as: kick / snare / stereo toms / stereo overheads.

Once in your mixer create a fake "overhead" mix down. Put low levels of kick, some snare, high hat (in proper stereo pan), cymbals (stereo panned to taste--not too wide, about 30%), toms (stereo panned appropriately, like 15%ish) and so on. Make it sound a lot like overhead mics--plenty of bleed but in general a good 'snapshot' of the overall kit sound. Be careful with too much kick, toms or snare... you want the cymbals to be predominant. Definately apply reverb to this to give that sense of space. Use the BEST reverb you have available. Reverb will help hide the cymbals and high hat as best they can....

Now throw away the cymbal tracks. :) If you want to do something to the cymbals modify the "overheads" like you would for real.

You would probably want a lot of seperation on the kick, snare and toms so don't use this trick with them. It will save you gating and so on. However, if you want to experiment with making these 'bleed' mixes and then going back and gating them a bit for added realism it can't hurt--it will add a lot of time though....

Anyways, mix down your toms into a stereo file so you can put stereo reverb, eq, compression on them like normal.

Now mix like you would a regular kit. For added realism do a submix of the entire drum kit and compress the snot out of it, mix this back in around -20db or so (i.e. "parallel compression"). Can add some beef.

Basically:

-program it realistically in the sequencer with human feel and personality

-set up the sounds to be realistic

-set yourself up to RECORD and MIX it like real drums

-then treat it like real drum as you mix it

If the high hat/cymals are a real pain you can always leave those out and do THOSE by hand. Set up some overhead mics and a high hat mic and play along with the song.

If you want a "room" sound, run a mix of the entire kit playing sans effects into a PA loudspeaker and turn it up to drummer volume levels in a decent sized, decent sounding room. Mic the room with some condensor mics however you want and record that. Treat those as your room mics and put them in your mix subtly. It will add that 'micro delay' that makes real drums sound realistic when recorded with microphones. Mix that in there at fairly low levels.

If you want a bit more realistic snare, run just the snare thru a monitor and MIC that.

Or do the old 'big speaker with a snare on it' using the snare track to trigger the speaker to vibrate the snare with each hit. Mic that and mix it in there.

Get creative. It can be a lot of fun. You can fool people with drum machines!


Wow man, nobody can say you don't the extra mile!
I will use some of these tips on my next recording. I have the basic patterns programed but I think I will go back and do a lot of what you suggest as it applies to my limited gear. I think I can come up with a way to make all of my drums seperate tracks. I really felt a need to do this on my last recording and wish I had. This should be fun.
 
How do i make the midi sound, sound real? I have some wave samples of a drum kit? is there a program that replaces these sounds to the sampled ones?

Any typical drum machine or synth already uses sampled drums. So it's a matter of finding a particluar set of drum sounds you particularly like. Or, going further, individual snares, toms, kicks from different sets. But the "realness" comes more from the way the MIDI performance was recorded, and some of the tips that Cloneboy Studio mentioned in his gracious post.

You can't really hope to just click a button and assign a sound set and have a MIDI drum track sound real.
 
There's no easy way to get a drum machine/sampler to sound realistic, but it *IS* possible... actually it is MORE possible nowadays because so many "real" drum sounds are triggers, drumagog'd, sound replaced, pro-tools'd and beat detectived into PERFECTION.

The main 'give away' is really the high hat and cymbals from a sound perspective. And many 24 bit samples available as part of programs such as Battery and Kontact sound great and have long sustain on the cymbal parts--making it easier to sound realistic.

But you have to program the sequence, tweak the sequence, and process the sounds in a way that adds to the realism.
 
How do you add timing randomization? I usually sequence in fruityloops and export as wav to Cubase....

I've been wondering how to randomize for SOOOO LONG!!!
 
Quagmire02 said:
How do you add timing randomization? I usually sequence in fruityloops and export as wav to Cubase....
There are 'groove templates' in Cubase but these won't do anything for an exported FL beat. The beats you export from FL are exported as a little locked package of sound with everything in the exact timing and pitch you heard in FL.

All the way to the right of the little graphs in FL - the ones you access by clicking on the icon next to the keyboard - is one that's labeled 'shift'. This is where you shift drum sounds (or any sound) back and forth in time. Mess around with this until you get something you like, then export it to a .wav file. Up is later in time, down is earlier - the middle with no line at all represents the unshifted position of a single drum hit. This is one of the things that I think FL is great for - I don't know of any other program that let's you do this exact thing this accurately and easily...

And next time you have a question to ask please don't add it to the bottom of an old thread. Start your own! We don't charge anymore to thread starters and I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results. :D
 
ssscientist said:
There are 'groove templates' in Cubase but these won't do anything for an exported FL beat. The beats you export from FL are exported as a little locked package of sound with everything in the exact timing and pitch you heard in FL.

All the way to the right of the little graphs in FL - the ones you access by clicking on the icon next to the keyboard - is one that's labeled 'shift'. This is where you shift drum sounds (or any sound) back and forth in time. Mess around with this until you get something you like, then export it to a .wav file. Up is later in time, down is earlier - the middle with no line at all represents the unshifted position of a single drum hit. This is one of the things that I think FL is great for - I don't know of any other program that let's you do this exact thing this accurately and easily...

And next time you have a question to ask please don't add it to the bottom of an old thread. Start your own! We don't charge anymore to thread starters and I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results. :D

Will do. I was trying to ward off the "USE THE SEARCH" people. I figure using a thread its mentioned in would conserve clutter...
 
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