Blue Bear Sound
New member
*yawn*
jeap
Banned
Scriabin said:Brubeck's sound on take 5 is great. Ever heard art blakey's kit on "drum thunder suite"? That entire first album with the jazz messengers is definitely worth listen. I agree with you on gene krupa, I always prefered his work to buddy rich. The 1938 carnegie hall concert with goodman and krupa is one of my favorites.
Mitch Mitchell, well there's another great drummer. He blew away Hendrix on "fire." One of my favorite drummers of all time.
You have good tastes in drummers
joe morello's bass drum especially on take 5 is astounding. he must be using extremely thin single-ply heads with very resonant shells. it rings like a bell.
ive heard the jazz messengers and i know what you mean. finally hearing recordings like these changed my thinking about ensemble sound.
i have a joe morello vid with a live version of take 5. its an instructional drum vid. its good even for nondrummers.
i have buddy rich videos and i prefer gene krupa too. not as many subdivisions but tons of style.
the live at canegie hall is not hifi but its astounding how the drums can leap out at you with a huge deep snare sound. the brush styling on the bluesy pieces is inspiring also.
jimi hendrix was the first artist i started collecting after i had all the beatles' albums. i started my record collection after the beatles were broken up but there was nothing else as good as that til i got my first hendrix album which was "jimi hendrix and otis redding live at the monterey pop festival" from a cutout bin at woolworth's for 99 cents.
jeap
Banned
littledog said:
when i first came here i started in the newbie forum and the roland forum as i used to record on a vs880.
big bitch seems to haunt all the forums looking for an excuse to say "fuck" and call ppls morons.
when i pointed out what a stupid asshole he is apparently he called in all the other flamers for a flame party.
one of my failings is that i tend to fight fire with fire especially with morons who like to pick fights with new members of forums. i figure "when in rome do as the romans do and i figure if you are going to be an asshole then its fine for me to sling insults too.
i cant help it if you were included in the "asshole posse".
my earliest postings were trying to help those new to recording and i also tried to have a little fun.
what i got was jumped by the homerec asshole posse.
i dont really care too much. i think the more the merrier and its great practice having to deal with pretentious and stuck up twits like yourself.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
*yawn*
You're really boring the crap out of me idiot boy... go argue with Harvey some more............
You're really boring the crap out of me idiot boy... go argue with Harvey some more............
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memriloc
New member
....
Anyone feel like a steak?....
Anyone feel like a steak?....
jeap
Banned
ha ha ha!
thats a good one memriloc.
i keep telling myself not to stoop to the level of the flamers. do you know they like to cruise the newbie forum looking to insult new members who dare to express opinions?
this forum seems to have misguided "spam police" who jump on positive mentions of certain products and "opinion police" who jump on any opinion that they disagree with.
i know that it is a grave personality flaw for me to give insults back for insults and i am trying to mend my ways but its hard.
god bless you all!
thats a good one memriloc.
i keep telling myself not to stoop to the level of the flamers. do you know they like to cruise the newbie forum looking to insult new members who dare to express opinions?
this forum seems to have misguided "spam police" who jump on positive mentions of certain products and "opinion police" who jump on any opinion that they disagree with.
i know that it is a grave personality flaw for me to give insults back for insults and i am trying to mend my ways but its hard.
god bless you all!
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musikman316
New member
Can we get back to the question?
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musikman316
New member
I like the Shure kit (although I will eventually replace the 57's as overheads for something else). I haven't used anything else... but it sounds great to me.
jeap
Banned
good idea!
ive put big boy and little dog on ignore so i can discuss in peace. i had thought i would never put anyone on ignore but all they want to do is bitch and moan.
57's as overheads??? my god!!! of course im sure you realize that already... do you like a "high impact" close miked sound? maybe youre a hard rocker?
i have seen many pro drummers using large condensers as overheads.
the studio projects team is recommending their b1 as a kick mic.
i was looking for a drum mic set or a seperate kick drum mic but i decided to get 2 large condensers instead to go with the one i already had and im glad i did! i use them all the time!
i am a lead guitarist and i tried to become my own drummer for recording my demos but i cant keep time. i know all the rudiments and have achieved a level of proficiency with them. ive been practicing on pads and with music and metronomes for years but i cant keep time. i get a number of late hits in my tracks and it makes me seasick when i listen back.
so ive given up on being a drummer. i bought a sampler and sampled my drums with the large condensers and i sequence them now and i record the hats ride and crashes seperately with the condensers. its a big compromise but hopefully i will be able to hire real drummers to do the stuff i want in the future!
ive put big boy and little dog on ignore so i can discuss in peace. i had thought i would never put anyone on ignore but all they want to do is bitch and moan.
57's as overheads??? my god!!! of course im sure you realize that already... do you like a "high impact" close miked sound? maybe youre a hard rocker?
i have seen many pro drummers using large condensers as overheads.
the studio projects team is recommending their b1 as a kick mic.
i was looking for a drum mic set or a seperate kick drum mic but i decided to get 2 large condensers instead to go with the one i already had and im glad i did! i use them all the time!
i am a lead guitarist and i tried to become my own drummer for recording my demos but i cant keep time. i know all the rudiments and have achieved a level of proficiency with them. ive been practicing on pads and with music and metronomes for years but i cant keep time. i get a number of late hits in my tracks and it makes me seasick when i listen back.
so ive given up on being a drummer. i bought a sampler and sampled my drums with the large condensers and i sequence them now and i record the hats ride and crashes seperately with the condensers. its a big compromise but hopefully i will be able to hire real drummers to do the stuff i want in the future!
Blue Bear Sound
New member
And while you're being honest with yourself on your skill-set...
...I've heard clips of your work - I strongly suggest giving up on sound recording too...
BTW... I'm absolutely thrilled to be on your ignore list, idiot-boy.... too bad that my being there doesn't also stop you from posting nonsense....
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memriloc
New member
LOL!...Thanks Jeap!....On the question....as boring as this might be just wanted to say that I've found this particualy interesting as I've wanted to grab a set purely for live, but, and not nessesarily (hope there's no 'spelling police for drums, also could be used studio wise....
for drums, also could be used studio wise....
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memriloc
New member
Blue....don't ya think that was alittle uncalled for man?
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Not really -- as usual, I'm simply telling it like it is.....memriloc said:
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memriloc
New member
Hmmm...
jeap
Banned
its amazing!
i cant see the insults any more!
i have been reborn into a world of goodness and light!
woo hoo!
yes live is a completely different animal. i know a lot of big acts are using large condensers as overheads live. the last concerts ive been to were bob dylan and brian setzer orchestra. setzer's drummer was great. he's sorta famous now i forget his name but he was a wild man with setzer. he was using incredibly full strokes and he had a spare snare next to his foot.
both times it looked like large condensers overhead.
but they are fragile.
now it seems to me that in a club or theatre or even a smaller outdoor show a lot of the drum sounds are going to be direct from the kit anyway so dynamics will give you some extra punch to add in.
hey you know shure now has a "budget" line of drum mics that look real good for live use. PG series.
the kick mic is large and is 120$ us
the snare and tom mics are only 69
the small condensers are 120
a whole set of 6 mics is only 399 at musician's friend.
i would jump on these in a heartbeat if i needed mics for live and didnt have the bucks for the AKG's or sennheisers. the sm57 is nice but harder to fit into the set than drum specific shapes.
i cant see the insults any more!
i have been reborn into a world of goodness and light!
woo hoo!
yes live is a completely different animal. i know a lot of big acts are using large condensers as overheads live. the last concerts ive been to were bob dylan and brian setzer orchestra. setzer's drummer was great. he's sorta famous now i forget his name but he was a wild man with setzer. he was using incredibly full strokes and he had a spare snare next to his foot.
both times it looked like large condensers overhead.
but they are fragile.
now it seems to me that in a club or theatre or even a smaller outdoor show a lot of the drum sounds are going to be direct from the kit anyway so dynamics will give you some extra punch to add in.
hey you know shure now has a "budget" line of drum mics that look real good for live use. PG series.
the kick mic is large and is 120$ us
the snare and tom mics are only 69
the small condensers are 120
a whole set of 6 mics is only 399 at musician's friend.
i would jump on these in a heartbeat if i needed mics for live and didnt have the bucks for the AKG's or sennheisers. the sm57 is nice but harder to fit into the set than drum specific shapes.
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littledog
New member
Re: Re: Jeap...........
Scriabin,
With all due respect, I really thought that I was dispassionately engaging in the discussion of the issues that you raised. ("If you ever need more than four mics...") I was merely trying to point out how some engineers, including much better ones than me, often have very legitimate reasons for using more than four mics, and not just on occasion. I love the Rudy van Gelder recordings, but I didn't think it was disrespectful or insulting to point out that other styles of music or acoustic limitations could demand different techniques. I can't possibly see how anything I said could be interpreted in such a way that merits a response to shove a mic up my ass.
Self-deprecation is a device that I use to try and avoid coming across as a pompous ass, especially in a written medium like this where body language and non-verbal cues are not present. Clearly that backfired in this case. But at no time was I personally attacking you in any intentional manner. I would appreciate knowing what it was that i said that set you off (so that i can avoid such behavior in the future), or is it just that you dislike me from something in the past, or is it just that I was foolish enough to wish to debate some of the issues you raised?
And whatever you think of me, I still love your namesake's D# minor etude for piano.
Scriabin said:
Scriabin said:
Scriabin,
With all due respect, I really thought that I was dispassionately engaging in the discussion of the issues that you raised. ("If you ever need more than four mics...") I was merely trying to point out how some engineers, including much better ones than me, often have very legitimate reasons for using more than four mics, and not just on occasion. I love the Rudy van Gelder recordings, but I didn't think it was disrespectful or insulting to point out that other styles of music or acoustic limitations could demand different techniques. I can't possibly see how anything I said could be interpreted in such a way that merits a response to shove a mic up my ass.
Self-deprecation is a device that I use to try and avoid coming across as a pompous ass, especially in a written medium like this where body language and non-verbal cues are not present. Clearly that backfired in this case. But at no time was I personally attacking you in any intentional manner. I would appreciate knowing what it was that i said that set you off (so that i can avoid such behavior in the future), or is it just that you dislike me from something in the past, or is it just that I was foolish enough to wish to debate some of the issues you raised?
And whatever you think of me, I still love your namesake's D# minor etude for piano.
Scriabin
New member
It seems that what we had here was a failure to communicate correctly. If I falsely interpreted your post then I'm sorry. Since we have no visual or verbal communication it's really hard to determine the tone of people's post and I shouldn't have added more fuel to the fire. You may now kindly disengage that microphone enima from your backside. Let's move on...
...and thank you for enjoying my piano works
...and thank you for enjoying my piano works
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littledog
New member
Thanks S.
It was starting to get uncomfortable!
It was starting to get uncomfortable!
jeap
Banned
some points to consider:
the proliferation of inexpensive large condensers is a recent thing.
when large condensers were all very expensive ppls were understandably very protective of them.
the limited number of large condensers would be reserved for voices and a limited number of other purposes.
can we see why drums might not get a large condenser?
the advent of the drum-specific mic predates the proliferation of inexpensive large condensers. since the large numbers of tracks commonly used allowed close miking of each drum the mics had to be durable to withstand stick hits. dynamic mics are much more durable.
the most accurate mic design is purported to be the small condenser. next is the large condenser. then the ribbon. then the dynamic.
generally speaking.
if you like the way your drums sound you might try a small condenser.
you may find that the small condenser doesnt have enough low frequencies.
you may try a large condenser.
you may find that the large condeneser sounds great. accurate but with a "warmer sound and more lows than the small condenser.
you may try a dynamic.
you may find that the dynamic sounds very punchy but doesnt accurately reproduce the sound of the drum. not enough high frequencies.
since you dont have a ribbon you havent tried it yet.
so...
you may decide to mix dynamics and small condensers to get wide response and a punchy sound.
or...
you may decide to use all large condensers for a "warm" accurate sound.
then...
you may post your opinions at a forum and get jumped by the self-appointed and seemingly intellectually challenged opinion police.
you can get 3 large condensers for the price of a cheapie drum pack and alan hyatt assures us that his b1 is not only a good mic but is also useful on kick drums.
the proliferation of inexpensive large condensers is a recent thing.
when large condensers were all very expensive ppls were understandably very protective of them.
the limited number of large condensers would be reserved for voices and a limited number of other purposes.
can we see why drums might not get a large condenser?
the advent of the drum-specific mic predates the proliferation of inexpensive large condensers. since the large numbers of tracks commonly used allowed close miking of each drum the mics had to be durable to withstand stick hits. dynamic mics are much more durable.
the most accurate mic design is purported to be the small condenser. next is the large condenser. then the ribbon. then the dynamic.
generally speaking.
if you like the way your drums sound you might try a small condenser.
you may find that the small condenser doesnt have enough low frequencies.
you may try a large condenser.
you may find that the large condeneser sounds great. accurate but with a "warmer sound and more lows than the small condenser.
you may try a dynamic.
you may find that the dynamic sounds very punchy but doesnt accurately reproduce the sound of the drum. not enough high frequencies.
since you dont have a ribbon you havent tried it yet.
so...
you may decide to mix dynamics and small condensers to get wide response and a punchy sound.
or...
you may decide to use all large condensers for a "warm" accurate sound.
then...
you may post your opinions at a forum and get jumped by the self-appointed and seemingly intellectually challenged opinion police.
you can get 3 large condensers for the price of a cheapie drum pack and alan hyatt assures us that his b1 is not only a good mic but is also useful on kick drums.
L
littledog
New member
While Jeap makes some good points, he may be reinforcing a common misperception that small diaphragm condensers cannot capture low frequencies as well as large diaphragm condensers. It's easy to make this mistake if we think about mic diaphragms like speaker diaphragms.
In fact, often the opposite is true. While a large diaphragm may give a "bigger" low end sound in some cases, it is because of a frequency boost in the low or low mid range. The small diaphragm, on the other hand, actually is often capturing a more accurate snapshot of the low end, and can be designed to be flat down to a much lower range than a large diaphragm.
It may sound like nit-picking, but it can be a useful concept to understand. To refer back to a discussion with an old friend Ethan, warmth is just another term for distortion, albeit a pleasing form of distortion. A microphone can be accurate or it can be warm, but it's hard to be both!
Hopefully this post will be construed as positive discussion about a concept, and not a personal attack.
In fact, often the opposite is true. While a large diaphragm may give a "bigger" low end sound in some cases, it is because of a frequency boost in the low or low mid range. The small diaphragm, on the other hand, actually is often capturing a more accurate snapshot of the low end, and can be designed to be flat down to a much lower range than a large diaphragm.
It may sound like nit-picking, but it can be a useful concept to understand. To refer back to a discussion with an old friend Ethan, warmth is just another term for distortion, albeit a pleasing form of distortion. A microphone can be accurate or it can be warm, but it's hard to be both!
Hopefully this post will be construed as positive discussion about a concept, and not a personal attack.