F
Flight 16
New member
Blue Bear Sound said:*yawn*
Any else care to repeat the same old tired rhetoric? I'm sure we'd all love to hear the same bullshit posted yet again...
well, lets agree to disagree then.
- Status
well, lets agree to disagree then.
B
Burden of Proof
New member
Everybody's talkin...
The question is, what is being said? Sounds like some people like downloading *freebie* stuff from the 'net, and some people don't like that those people do that.
I for one think that (like most things) there are two *valid* sides to this argument. There was that first post from Flight16 (who, by the way, REALLY needs to run a spell checker before posting, you make yourself look illiterate with all the poor spelling and grammar) - where he says that he wouldn't have bought Cubase if he hadn't played with a hack copy, and that most people who want to use a program really do want to buy it. I think that's true, and what's more, it's true for a lot of people (christ, look at how many pages this thread spans now, with people defending their 'thievery'?).
I also think that BassMasterK has a point too. Who can honestly say "If everyone used cracked software, it will still hurt nobody"... The only thing I see missing from this statement is the word "exclusively". To make the statement fair, it has to say "If everyone used cracked software EXCLUSIVELY, it will still hurt nobody". Because there's a gray area in there somewhere. If you use some cracked software, and buy that or other software later, then someone's still making money and it's possible that everything could still work out okay - maybe not for the software company who's software is being cracked (depending on who if anyone actually does buy that software in addition to or instead of a cracked version). But hey, IT'S TOUGH AT THE TOP. The companies who get their software cracked are the "big boys", not the little guy. You're not going to find N-Tracks Studio as a filesharing watershed anytime soon. It's the Cubase, the Cakewalk, and the ProTools that gets hit with this. And you know what? They get plenty of business from recording professionals. I mean it, really. Plenty. Plus (remember, this really is a valid argument - can someone say how it's not?) advertising and new sales from wanna-be's downloading and playing with cracks.
And if you think that the piracy drives the price up, you're wrong. Delusional even. If anything, piracy will drive the price down. Software prices (especially high-end niche software) are based on supply and demand, not directly on development costs. It costs $800 for Cubase-SUPERMEGAAWESOME because they KNOW people will PAY it. Not because of development costs. If that were the case, why do they sell a stripped down version of the same code for $150, doesn't that mean they'd be losing $650 against development cost per sale of the stripped down software? Wouldn't they be out of business if everyone bought the $150 version? Hell no. They'd just be less rich. And don't go thinking it's the programmers that would be less rich - it's the execs that make all the 'skimmable' over-production-cost money. Programmers are just part of the 'production cost'. Production costs are hard costs. Especially for big companies. It's very rare that the budget for a mega-software like Cubase will be impacted in the slightest based on how third-quarter sales compared to second-quarter sales. Shit, even in a nuclear holocaust the folks at Steinberg would probably make back production costs on SX3. They make money selling to producers and studios, who in my opinion, are not at the top of the list of people who frequently download cracked software to try and make a living with.
Some people, especially younger folks, novices, and students, see the $800 price tag, then see they can get it for free. Why buy software you know nothing about when you can try it for free? So they do that, and the only way for the software company to compete is either get all gestapo about it and start arresting their potential customer base, or drive the price down to make it accessible to folks who will otherwise just steal it. Hence a $150 version which still makes money, and attracts a customer base of pirates who only even know the name Cubase because they saw it on Kazaa under a search for "Recording Music". Just think how many pirates come here to learn about Cubase, and how few of them are asking about "N-Tracks". When they're actually ready to buy software, which name do you think they'll buy?
Now, that doesn't mean "hey everybody, let's pirate it 'cause we CAN!" - because that goes back to BassMaster's point, if everyone used pirated software EXCLUSIVELY, then the industry would be screwed. The moral decision is made on a personal basis, and often on a case by case basis. Some software gets stolen, and other times it gets bought, sometimes by the same person - and I don't think there's a way to definitively say who can or should do what. If a pirate holds true to a belief that they will one day pay for that software they love playing with, then good for them. Some will. Some won't. And some will get bent all out of shape that it happens that way. There are laws in place now and new ones made all the time to regulate this kind of activity, and those who disregard them do so at their own risk. But at no point will I make the decision for everybody what is right or allowable. My name's not Stalin, or Zemin, or Hussein, or "God of all men's morals as applied to filesharing" - how bout you?
Software piracy isn't just a petty crime, it isn't just a subculture - it's a resource, growingly available to a growing number of people. You can't just one day say, "There shouldn't be any more guns." and have every backwater redneck waltz down to the public library and turn in 'Ole Bessie the 12-gauge, and pretend that guns never existed. Likewise, you can't just say "There shouldn't be any more filesharing". You can't take away developments in science and in human nature. They just exist, and the only thing to do is deal with it.
The truth is, both sides of this argument are valid. But people riding the extremes of either side are missing it. The answer is somewhere inbetween.
Some people will say it's okay to share and use cracked software exclusively. Which is wrong (I think).
Some people will say that filesharing and using cracked software at all is not okay. Which is also wrong (I think).
Yes, stealing is wrong, but how can one deny a resource that's available to them? You just have to take the morality out of the question, because EVERYONE'S MORALS ARE DIFFERENT, and what's worse, SLANTED FROM VARIOUS SOURCES OF INPUT. Filesharing and the use of cracked software is a part of life. What people choose to do with this resource is up to their morals, which can not be decided for them by me, you, or anyone else.
I like to think that humans are generally good, and therefore we are at no threat of civilization ending because hacker groups figured out how to crack mega-expensive software and distribute it. Some people think people are essentially evil, and come to different conclusions.
Now back to some more "I'm right and you're wrong" rhetoric... who's next?
-The Burden-
The question is, what is being said? Sounds like some people like downloading *freebie* stuff from the 'net, and some people don't like that those people do that.
I for one think that (like most things) there are two *valid* sides to this argument. There was that first post from Flight16 (who, by the way, REALLY needs to run a spell checker before posting, you make yourself look illiterate with all the poor spelling and grammar) - where he says that he wouldn't have bought Cubase if he hadn't played with a hack copy, and that most people who want to use a program really do want to buy it. I think that's true, and what's more, it's true for a lot of people (christ, look at how many pages this thread spans now, with people defending their 'thievery'?).
I also think that BassMasterK has a point too. Who can honestly say "If everyone used cracked software, it will still hurt nobody"... The only thing I see missing from this statement is the word "exclusively". To make the statement fair, it has to say "If everyone used cracked software EXCLUSIVELY, it will still hurt nobody". Because there's a gray area in there somewhere. If you use some cracked software, and buy that or other software later, then someone's still making money and it's possible that everything could still work out okay - maybe not for the software company who's software is being cracked (depending on who if anyone actually does buy that software in addition to or instead of a cracked version). But hey, IT'S TOUGH AT THE TOP. The companies who get their software cracked are the "big boys", not the little guy. You're not going to find N-Tracks Studio as a filesharing watershed anytime soon. It's the Cubase, the Cakewalk, and the ProTools that gets hit with this. And you know what? They get plenty of business from recording professionals. I mean it, really. Plenty. Plus (remember, this really is a valid argument - can someone say how it's not?) advertising and new sales from wanna-be's downloading and playing with cracks.
And if you think that the piracy drives the price up, you're wrong. Delusional even. If anything, piracy will drive the price down. Software prices (especially high-end niche software) are based on supply and demand, not directly on development costs. It costs $800 for Cubase-SUPERMEGAAWESOME because they KNOW people will PAY it. Not because of development costs. If that were the case, why do they sell a stripped down version of the same code for $150, doesn't that mean they'd be losing $650 against development cost per sale of the stripped down software? Wouldn't they be out of business if everyone bought the $150 version? Hell no. They'd just be less rich. And don't go thinking it's the programmers that would be less rich - it's the execs that make all the 'skimmable' over-production-cost money. Programmers are just part of the 'production cost'. Production costs are hard costs. Especially for big companies. It's very rare that the budget for a mega-software like Cubase will be impacted in the slightest based on how third-quarter sales compared to second-quarter sales. Shit, even in a nuclear holocaust the folks at Steinberg would probably make back production costs on SX3. They make money selling to producers and studios, who in my opinion, are not at the top of the list of people who frequently download cracked software to try and make a living with.
Some people, especially younger folks, novices, and students, see the $800 price tag, then see they can get it for free. Why buy software you know nothing about when you can try it for free? So they do that, and the only way for the software company to compete is either get all gestapo about it and start arresting their potential customer base, or drive the price down to make it accessible to folks who will otherwise just steal it. Hence a $150 version which still makes money, and attracts a customer base of pirates who only even know the name Cubase because they saw it on Kazaa under a search for "Recording Music". Just think how many pirates come here to learn about Cubase, and how few of them are asking about "N-Tracks". When they're actually ready to buy software, which name do you think they'll buy?
Now, that doesn't mean "hey everybody, let's pirate it 'cause we CAN!" - because that goes back to BassMaster's point, if everyone used pirated software EXCLUSIVELY, then the industry would be screwed. The moral decision is made on a personal basis, and often on a case by case basis. Some software gets stolen, and other times it gets bought, sometimes by the same person - and I don't think there's a way to definitively say who can or should do what. If a pirate holds true to a belief that they will one day pay for that software they love playing with, then good for them. Some will. Some won't. And some will get bent all out of shape that it happens that way. There are laws in place now and new ones made all the time to regulate this kind of activity, and those who disregard them do so at their own risk. But at no point will I make the decision for everybody what is right or allowable. My name's not Stalin, or Zemin, or Hussein, or "God of all men's morals as applied to filesharing" - how bout you?
Software piracy isn't just a petty crime, it isn't just a subculture - it's a resource, growingly available to a growing number of people. You can't just one day say, "There shouldn't be any more guns." and have every backwater redneck waltz down to the public library and turn in 'Ole Bessie the 12-gauge, and pretend that guns never existed. Likewise, you can't just say "There shouldn't be any more filesharing". You can't take away developments in science and in human nature. They just exist, and the only thing to do is deal with it.
The truth is, both sides of this argument are valid. But people riding the extremes of either side are missing it. The answer is somewhere inbetween.
Some people will say it's okay to share and use cracked software exclusively. Which is wrong (I think).
Some people will say that filesharing and using cracked software at all is not okay. Which is also wrong (I think).
Yes, stealing is wrong, but how can one deny a resource that's available to them? You just have to take the morality out of the question, because EVERYONE'S MORALS ARE DIFFERENT, and what's worse, SLANTED FROM VARIOUS SOURCES OF INPUT. Filesharing and the use of cracked software is a part of life. What people choose to do with this resource is up to their morals, which can not be decided for them by me, you, or anyone else.
I like to think that humans are generally good, and therefore we are at no threat of civilization ending because hacker groups figured out how to crack mega-expensive software and distribute it. Some people think people are essentially evil, and come to different conclusions.
Now back to some more "I'm right and you're wrong" rhetoric... who's next?
-The Burden-
N
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
The only thing I got out of all that Burden is that your just full of shit. Telling Flight to use a spell checker so he doesn't appear illiterate, geez. You just proved spelling correctly doesn't mean your literate.
For one, if everyone used crack software, no one would buy it period, duh! Not only would no one buy it, but no one would probably produce it. Why would they buy it, for back-up? Why would you produce it? Most people have families to raise and support. You must be missing some gray area.
You are the one totally wrong about piracy not driving up the cost of software and to think large companies are all rich people is just preposterous. You have about a seventh grade understanding of business and economics. And where do you get off at referring to rednecks when you've obviously been baking way to long in the sun?
There is no in between answer, all there is is simple denial. It's wrong, it's theft. The rest is insincere rhetoric which you can spout out your pie hole all nite if you like but it won't change a thing.
For one, if everyone used crack software, no one would buy it period, duh! Not only would no one buy it, but no one would probably produce it. Why would they buy it, for back-up? Why would you produce it? Most people have families to raise and support. You must be missing some gray area.
You are the one totally wrong about piracy not driving up the cost of software and to think large companies are all rich people is just preposterous. You have about a seventh grade understanding of business and economics. And where do you get off at referring to rednecks when you've obviously been baking way to long in the sun?
There is no in between answer, all there is is simple denial. It's wrong, it's theft. The rest is insincere rhetoric which you can spout out your pie hole all nite if you like but it won't change a thing.
B
Burden of Proof
New member
NYMorningStar is right, and I'm wrong, tra-lee-laaa... woo-hoo!
NYMorningStar, my opinions have what to do with my literacy? Just because you don't like what I say does not make me illiterate. That was a bit of a stretch, even for your thin strands of logic...
You say, "For one, if everyone used crack software, no one would buy it period, duh! Not only would no one buy it, but no one would probably produce it." Did you read my whole post, or just get upset and start ranting right after the beginning? You need to address the word "exclusively". Reading thoroughly is important if you want to sound like you know what you're talking about.
To continue point by point, I never said that "large companies are all rich people", although as a programmer by trade I do know that most programmers get paid hourly while the suits get all the sales bonuses and profit sharing. Thank you for pointing out my seventh grade economics understanding, maybe you can fill me in on exactly how programming budgets get worked out on the basis of how many copies of the software get pirated? Supply and Demand may be a 7th grade concept - but there's a reason they teach it early... it's an important reality that you are not facing; it's the reality that determines niche software prices, among many many other things.
As for the rednecks, I live in redneck country. You ever try and take a gun away from a redneck? Don't try and get all defensive on behalf of the subject of an analogy.
"It's wrong, it's theft. The rest is insincere rhetoric which you can spout out your pie hole all nite if you like but it won't change a thing." - You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Yours, like mine, also won't change a thing. I preach acceptance, you preach disgust. Who goes home happier?
I see no one yet has an argument against cracked versions converting new customers and providing free advertising, just as no one can rightly say that "if everyone used cracked software exclusively, no one would be hurt by it". Th real answer lies in a gray area inbetween. Not just your noodle, as NY so cleverly alluded to, but in a legitimate inbetween space that is not clearly black or white. Filesharing is here to stay, and people will use it. The real question is what line do your morals define as 'uncrossable'?
-The Burden-
NYMorningStar, my opinions have what to do with my literacy? Just because you don't like what I say does not make me illiterate. That was a bit of a stretch, even for your thin strands of logic...
You say, "For one, if everyone used crack software, no one would buy it period, duh! Not only would no one buy it, but no one would probably produce it." Did you read my whole post, or just get upset and start ranting right after the beginning? You need to address the word "exclusively". Reading thoroughly is important if you want to sound like you know what you're talking about.
To continue point by point, I never said that "large companies are all rich people", although as a programmer by trade I do know that most programmers get paid hourly while the suits get all the sales bonuses and profit sharing. Thank you for pointing out my seventh grade economics understanding, maybe you can fill me in on exactly how programming budgets get worked out on the basis of how many copies of the software get pirated? Supply and Demand may be a 7th grade concept - but there's a reason they teach it early... it's an important reality that you are not facing; it's the reality that determines niche software prices, among many many other things.
As for the rednecks, I live in redneck country. You ever try and take a gun away from a redneck? Don't try and get all defensive on behalf of the subject of an analogy.
"It's wrong, it's theft. The rest is insincere rhetoric which you can spout out your pie hole all nite if you like but it won't change a thing." - You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Yours, like mine, also won't change a thing. I preach acceptance, you preach disgust. Who goes home happier?
I see no one yet has an argument against cracked versions converting new customers and providing free advertising, just as no one can rightly say that "if everyone used cracked software exclusively, no one would be hurt by it". Th real answer lies in a gray area inbetween. Not just your noodle, as NY so cleverly alluded to, but in a legitimate inbetween space that is not clearly black or white. Filesharing is here to stay, and people will use it. The real question is what line do your morals define as 'uncrossable'?
-The Burden-
Blue Bear Sound
New member
I just *knew* someone would...... I can't roll my eyes enough in this thread...Blue Bear Sound said:*yawn*
Any else care to repeat the same old tired rhetoric? I'm sure we'd all love to hear the same bullshit posted yet again...
B
Burden of Proof
New member
Dearest Blue Bear,
You're really good at not saying anything at all. No answers or conversation, just attitude. I appreciate your contribution (really I do), but if you don't have anything to say, does the jaw have to flap anyway? No, really - I like how you get all arrogant and self-riteous without really having to say anything at all. It's such a convincing argument. I'm glad you took the time to read my post and respond to it, because now I know how you really feel.
How many times can you roll your eyes before you realize that this topic hasn't raged for 17+ pages because it's a non-issue? People really do have mixed opinions on this one - if you want to convince people of your beliefs, you'll have to try harder than rolling your eyes. Haven't quite convinced me yet.
-The Burden-
You're really good at not saying anything at all. No answers or conversation, just attitude. I appreciate your contribution (really I do), but if you don't have anything to say, does the jaw have to flap anyway? No, really - I like how you get all arrogant and self-riteous without really having to say anything at all. It's such a convincing argument. I'm glad you took the time to read my post and respond to it, because now I know how you really feel.
How many times can you roll your eyes before you realize that this topic hasn't raged for 17+ pages because it's a non-issue? People really do have mixed opinions on this one - if you want to convince people of your beliefs, you'll have to try harder than rolling your eyes. Haven't quite convinced me yet.
-The Burden-
Blue Bear Sound
New member
I've said my piece several times on this thread already, and I'm not going to repeat it again.... (unlike the morons who keep coming back condoning theft......)
All I'm doing now is pointing out the stupidity of those who try to justifiy and rationalize their lack of values and inabaility to "do the right thing"........
All I'm doing now is pointing out the stupidity of those who try to justifiy and rationalize their lack of values and inabaility to "do the right thing"........
F
Flight 16
New member
1, I do use a spell checker but sometimes am rushed as I have other things that I would rather focus on...
2, even if I could not spell it really does not show how smart someone is...I am a writer and im proud to say John Lennon, Noel Gallagher, Pete Townsend...many more... all had spelling problems...
.....
and about the argument... I have know lots of people who have had hacks and then got the real thing ...so that's sales right there ..I can name 4 Cubase sales due to hacks.... ok I think if your making money out of Cubase then not only would you be studio and playing with fire not paying for it....but a bit out of order...
in the last 2 years Cubase have brought out 2 SX versions plus updates with new synchs...so it does not look like they are skint to me.
its all well saying" I have worked my arse off to get my cubase" but some people have not had the chance to work there arse off to get Cubase ...so for those people who love music I think its cool they get a chance to learn it and maybe even change there lives...they would be paying for stuff then!
When I had the hack there was no way I could afford it, when i did get some spare cash...i got Studiocase for £150, at that point i new i would be useing it lots and wanted somthing more solid...I used the hack for about 5 months ...now I have my own studio set up all paid for and I promote Cubase with ever Demo I make....
A hack is not a luxury it is a way of scrapping out a free chance...even if someone brags about having a hack they would cream them self if they had a big box with Cubase SX3 written on it.
and yes it is silly saying "if everyone had a hack then no one would
2, even if I could not spell it really does not show how smart someone is...I am a writer and im proud to say John Lennon, Noel Gallagher, Pete Townsend...many more... all had spelling problems...
.....and about the argument... I have know lots of people who have had hacks and then got the real thing ...so that's sales right there ..I can name 4 Cubase sales due to hacks.... ok I think if your making money out of Cubase then not only would you be studio and playing with fire not paying for it....but a bit out of order...
in the last 2 years Cubase have brought out 2 SX versions plus updates with new synchs...so it does not look like they are skint to me.
its all well saying" I have worked my arse off to get my cubase" but some people have not had the chance to work there arse off to get Cubase ...so for those people who love music I think its cool they get a chance to learn it and maybe even change there lives...they would be paying for stuff then!
When I had the hack there was no way I could afford it, when i did get some spare cash...i got Studiocase for £150, at that point i new i would be useing it lots and wanted somthing more solid...I used the hack for about 5 months ...now I have my own studio set up all paid for and I promote Cubase with ever Demo I make....
A hack is not a luxury it is a way of scrapping out a free chance...even if someone brags about having a hack they would cream them self if they had a big box with Cubase SX3 written on it.
and yes it is silly saying "if everyone had a hack then no one would
HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
Burden of Proof said:
Well, you're full of shit. I happen to have a piece of software for sale. It's not for recording music but that's besides the point. I sell it for $50. It was cracked within a week of releasing it. So this statement is plain bullshit.
If you had a fuckin clue, you would know that the people doing the cracking do it for prestige. It's all about who can crack and distribute the most shit.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
This is what kills me, this "entitlement attitude" that many young people seem to have in abundance. "I can't afford it, but I want it..... they all have it - I should have it too..... I'll guess I'll just have to steal it......"
Hey clueless-- you can't afford something??? THEN DO WITHOUT UNTIL YOU CAN........ fuck, it isn't rocket science......
Un-fucking-believable the amount of stupidity in this thread................
Hey clueless-- you can't afford something??? THEN DO WITHOUT UNTIL YOU CAN........ fuck, it isn't rocket science......
This is hilarity at its best....... "some people have not had the chance to work there arse off" WTF??????? Obviously they're not working hard enough then........Flight 16 said:
Un-fucking-believable the amount of stupidity in this thread................
NL5
Unpossible!
Wow. Still going...
I'm just using this as a shameless excuse to raise my post count!
I'm just using this as a shameless excuse to raise my post count!
HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
NL5 said:Wow. Still going...
I'm just using this as a shameless excuse to raise my post count!
Giddyup!
B
Burden of Proof
New member
Doing the right thing
I think it's up to people to decide for themselves what constitutes doing the right thing. For me, I am doing the right thing. For you, you are doing the right thing. Just don't try to tell me what the right thing for me is, and don't try to pretend that my point of view is invalid and false. Because it's not. I have not once condoned theft - I'm simply stating that it's a fact of life, and trying to pretend like the amoral heathens should just stop because you don't agree with it is just as false as saying it's all gravy for everyone so why don't we all do it?
A "roll your eyes" attitude is not progressive. It's stagnant. People are going to do what makes sense to them, and rationalize it any way they can - it's been happening for millenia. Sometimes laws get made to support those rationalizations, sometimes to defeat them. All I'm saying is that by being accepting of that fact, there are points to the rationalization that actually DO make sense. By discounting them out of hand and simply rolling your eyes, you make yourself blind. Considering it amoral will not stop it. Nothing will stop it. The only thing to do now is see how something good can come of it. If you don't think anything good can or has come of it, then you are more closed minded than my original impressions have led me to believe. Flight16, regardless of his ability to express it, has a point. I initally started on this thread saying the same thing - cracked copies have lead me to purchasing software I never would have purchased otherwise, so I have a hard time just dismissing and rolling my eyes at that statement.
Where do you draw your line? Because you have drawn one, and the arguments on this topic are clearly on one side of that line. For me, they're on both sides of that line. Funny, but yesterday as I was posting, a co-worker came over to me and handed me a burned DVD of "Transformers The Movie" (which, as a 28-yr-old nerd, is a perfect nostalgia piece for me) because we had talked about it the day before. Am I going to turn down that copy and tell him off for copying it? Hell no. Would you? Honestly?
Stealing is bad. Wrong. Evil, even, if you want to go that far. I sure don't like the idea of someone stealing from me. But I think you'll find that there's a little part of you that exists on the "it's okay" side of the line, whether it comes down to a copy of a friend's CD or playing with a cracked software for a few weeks (or forever). I think you'll find that everyone's thinking gets a little hypocritical in some ways - you're just exposing yours by being so self-riteous about this particular instance. Like I said to NY, I'm just preaching acceptance - not to do one thing or another or to feel one way or another.
If you can sit on your high horse up here and say that either "All people playing with software cracks are bad and wrong" or that "No one needs to buy software when they can get it for free" - you're being hypocritical. Just think about it for a minute. I'll go back to my last question, starting a bit of a new thought on the subject. Where do you draw your line? What is acceptable? Is it okay to take a burned CD from a friend? Is it okay to play with a cracked software if you buy it? How about if you never buy it? Everyone's got a moral line that decides what's okay for them... what's your line?
Also, on a separate note, to Hang Dawg - what kind of software did you release, and do you sell it at all or is it all cracked copies and you make nothing? I'm not asking for exact specifics, wouldn't want you to think I'm out there looking to steal your software. Just looking to understand what the impact of software piracy really is for the little guy. I'll be the first to admit how wrong I am if you can convince me that a cracked copy of your software impacted your sales negatively. Numbers would be nice, but at least an explaination. And yes, people crack software for prestige, I never said otherwise - but it's the big boys in the industry that both get hit the hardest and see the most benefit in terms of new customers.
Am I wrong? Someone tell me how NO NEW CUSTOMERS ARE BORN OF PLAYING WITH CRACKS. Or give me the mathematical formula that shows how more money is lost than gained. It's all speculation, folks - and if you're die hard in one camp over the other than you're failing to realize that.
Plus, where's your line? I want to hear some hypocracy.
I think it's up to people to decide for themselves what constitutes doing the right thing. For me, I am doing the right thing. For you, you are doing the right thing. Just don't try to tell me what the right thing for me is, and don't try to pretend that my point of view is invalid and false. Because it's not. I have not once condoned theft - I'm simply stating that it's a fact of life, and trying to pretend like the amoral heathens should just stop because you don't agree with it is just as false as saying it's all gravy for everyone so why don't we all do it?
A "roll your eyes" attitude is not progressive. It's stagnant. People are going to do what makes sense to them, and rationalize it any way they can - it's been happening for millenia. Sometimes laws get made to support those rationalizations, sometimes to defeat them. All I'm saying is that by being accepting of that fact, there are points to the rationalization that actually DO make sense. By discounting them out of hand and simply rolling your eyes, you make yourself blind. Considering it amoral will not stop it. Nothing will stop it. The only thing to do now is see how something good can come of it. If you don't think anything good can or has come of it, then you are more closed minded than my original impressions have led me to believe. Flight16, regardless of his ability to express it, has a point. I initally started on this thread saying the same thing - cracked copies have lead me to purchasing software I never would have purchased otherwise, so I have a hard time just dismissing and rolling my eyes at that statement.
Where do you draw your line? Because you have drawn one, and the arguments on this topic are clearly on one side of that line. For me, they're on both sides of that line. Funny, but yesterday as I was posting, a co-worker came over to me and handed me a burned DVD of "Transformers The Movie" (which, as a 28-yr-old nerd, is a perfect nostalgia piece for me) because we had talked about it the day before. Am I going to turn down that copy and tell him off for copying it? Hell no. Would you? Honestly?
Stealing is bad. Wrong. Evil, even, if you want to go that far. I sure don't like the idea of someone stealing from me. But I think you'll find that there's a little part of you that exists on the "it's okay" side of the line, whether it comes down to a copy of a friend's CD or playing with a cracked software for a few weeks (or forever). I think you'll find that everyone's thinking gets a little hypocritical in some ways - you're just exposing yours by being so self-riteous about this particular instance. Like I said to NY, I'm just preaching acceptance - not to do one thing or another or to feel one way or another.
If you can sit on your high horse up here and say that either "All people playing with software cracks are bad and wrong" or that "No one needs to buy software when they can get it for free" - you're being hypocritical. Just think about it for a minute. I'll go back to my last question, starting a bit of a new thought on the subject. Where do you draw your line? What is acceptable? Is it okay to take a burned CD from a friend? Is it okay to play with a cracked software if you buy it? How about if you never buy it? Everyone's got a moral line that decides what's okay for them... what's your line?
Also, on a separate note, to Hang Dawg - what kind of software did you release, and do you sell it at all or is it all cracked copies and you make nothing? I'm not asking for exact specifics, wouldn't want you to think I'm out there looking to steal your software. Just looking to understand what the impact of software piracy really is for the little guy. I'll be the first to admit how wrong I am if you can convince me that a cracked copy of your software impacted your sales negatively. Numbers would be nice, but at least an explaination. And yes, people crack software for prestige, I never said otherwise - but it's the big boys in the industry that both get hit the hardest and see the most benefit in terms of new customers.
Am I wrong? Someone tell me how NO NEW CUSTOMERS ARE BORN OF PLAYING WITH CRACKS. Or give me the mathematical formula that shows how more money is lost than gained. It's all speculation, folks - and if you're die hard in one camp over the other than you're failing to realize that.
Plus, where's your line? I want to hear some hypocracy.
HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
It's software that audits database activity. Very few products out there that do it (very few). I've sold some. But it's really hard to say the impact it may have had. All I can do is go by the number of downloads. I had about 10-15 a week. One day I noticed that there were 5 times that many in one day with no increase in sales. Would these people have bought it without a crack being available? You tell me. All I know is they have it, and didn't pay for it.
F
Flight 16
New member
Blue Bear Sound said:This is what kills me, this "entitlement attitude" that many young people seem to have in abundance. "I can't afford it, but I want it..... they all have it - I should have it too..... I'll guess I'll just have to steal it......"
Hey clueless-- you can't afford something??? THEN DO WITHOUT UNTIL YOU CAN........ fuck, it isn't rocket science......
This is hilarity at its best....... "some people have not had the chance to work there arse off" WTF??????? Obviously they're not working hard enough then........
Un-fucking-believable the amount of stupidity in this thread................
ok, so you think that we all have equal opportunity in this world??? you are very much mistaken!!....I thank the lord everyday that I am sitting here now with my two monitors either side of my desk ...I have made Big sacrifices and put all I have into what I do...not that Im flying yet..but Im walking.....but I have always had opportunity...its just I have grabbed every bit with a passion....
some do not get opportunity.... don't get a chance to have education...and there are a number of things that stop people from having what we have. ok some do have the big story who manage to crawl out of it...(ask Eminem if he used a hack in his early days...mmm I wonder) ...but that's why there big stories!..because they hardly happen!
for these people a crack could be a life savour and they are no going to be able to afford it anyway, but you bet your last dollar should they get a deal or job out of it...they would walk into a shop with there heads high and pay for it with glee!! ...
I have said my bit....I don't think you will open your mind to this but at least you have heard thoughts from the "evil" side
anyway..back to my fully played SX3 and UAD-1 card ... ..the hack I used just made Steinberg £550 and U Audio $800!!! ...
happy music making
B
Burden of Proof
New member
Hang Dawg
So it's a download-and-enter-the-code kind of registration, and you offer an unlocakable demo? That's very interesting. Have you found the crack for it online, and/or tried to find out who cracked it and where the information is being distributed?
I'm not trying to invalidate you, but is there any way that the increase in downloads could be coincidental? Like, did the site see a lot of traffic that day or did you go up in search engine rankings or get posted on download.com or something like that? How can you be sure that these are all people stealing your database auditing software?
Also, have the sales of the software gone down since the crack? Unless they've taken a reverse track and you've seen loss of sales then you have to accept that you're not losing business due to the crack. Just failing to attract new business, which it is debatable whether they really would be new business or not. Remember, I'm preaching acceptance. Your software is going to get stolen. Like you said, it's about prestige for the hacker - the hacker will find and crack your software whether you think it's cool or nice of them or not. People will use that cracked software as well. It's possible that some of the people using the cracked software will one day say "Hey, I'm gonna buy that, I use it all the time". It's also possible they won't.
But even a crack of your software has not stopped sales entirely, has it? In fact, I doubt it has lessened your sales numbers at all. In fact, aren't there now 5 times as many people who know about your software as knew about it before, even if they are using it for free (assuming that the 5 times as many downloads were due entirely to the crack alone)?
Have your sales numbers dropped, or are they consistent, or are they rising? I think the fallacy here is thinking that those 5 times as many people are customers that just didn't pay money. They were never customers to start with, just people downloading some software because they could. Not because they were looking to avoid paying money - they weren't going to pay any money any way you look at it (I mean, to skip on a $50 software when similar niche softwares sell at $800-$1500 and more?) - just because they were using a resource available to them.
My morality and your morality differ. Just like everyone's. But if you remove morality from the equation... are you losing money, gaining money, or staying the same at the end of the day? I still don't think you're getting ripped or screwed in this equation. You said yourself, no increase in sales. Not a loss of sales.
Anyone else have examples, or HangDawg is there more evidence here that I'm unaware of?
So it's a download-and-enter-the-code kind of registration, and you offer an unlocakable demo? That's very interesting. Have you found the crack for it online, and/or tried to find out who cracked it and where the information is being distributed?
I'm not trying to invalidate you, but is there any way that the increase in downloads could be coincidental? Like, did the site see a lot of traffic that day or did you go up in search engine rankings or get posted on download.com or something like that? How can you be sure that these are all people stealing your database auditing software?
Also, have the sales of the software gone down since the crack? Unless they've taken a reverse track and you've seen loss of sales then you have to accept that you're not losing business due to the crack. Just failing to attract new business, which it is debatable whether they really would be new business or not. Remember, I'm preaching acceptance. Your software is going to get stolen. Like you said, it's about prestige for the hacker - the hacker will find and crack your software whether you think it's cool or nice of them or not. People will use that cracked software as well. It's possible that some of the people using the cracked software will one day say "Hey, I'm gonna buy that, I use it all the time". It's also possible they won't.
But even a crack of your software has not stopped sales entirely, has it? In fact, I doubt it has lessened your sales numbers at all. In fact, aren't there now 5 times as many people who know about your software as knew about it before, even if they are using it for free (assuming that the 5 times as many downloads were due entirely to the crack alone)?
Have your sales numbers dropped, or are they consistent, or are they rising? I think the fallacy here is thinking that those 5 times as many people are customers that just didn't pay money. They were never customers to start with, just people downloading some software because they could. Not because they were looking to avoid paying money - they weren't going to pay any money any way you look at it (I mean, to skip on a $50 software when similar niche softwares sell at $800-$1500 and more?) - just because they were using a resource available to them.
My morality and your morality differ. Just like everyone's. But if you remove morality from the equation... are you losing money, gaining money, or staying the same at the end of the day? I still don't think you're getting ripped or screwed in this equation. You said yourself, no increase in sales. Not a loss of sales.
Anyone else have examples, or HangDawg is there more evidence here that I'm unaware of?
Bass Master "K"
New member
Burden of Proof said:
I have a few friends who are willing to take morality out of the question. Could you post your home address please...they want to see which of your resources are available to them. After all, how can you deny them? You said it yourself.
HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
Bass Master "K" said:
Good point. I guess you could say all resources are available to everyone at all times. It just some people decide not to steal them and others do not.
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HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
Burden of Proof said:
I received an anonymous email stating that my software was cracked the same day that the increase occured. Coincidence? I doubt it. I pulled the software and went with an online distributor. They do the encryption of the executable and add their code to allow purchasing online. I left the option to purchase by telephone initially (still handled by softwrap). It wasn't more than a week and I received another email stating my software was cracked. I have since done away with the telephone purchase option. It has to be purchased and unlocked through an online process that seems pretty crack proof at this point. Downloads have returned to their previous levels.
Take it however you want. These people that do this shit just for fun are still fucking assholes.
F
Flight 16
New member
HangDawg said:
also that's a silly thing to say....
if someone came to my place and took my hardware...I would be left with nothing after paying all my money for it....
taking a hack is not leaving Steinberg empty handed...and in fact advertises its product to lots of people. ..it is simply taking a scrap that has fallen off the wagon....yes it is taking something that is not yours, but we dont live in a perfect world and somtimes it does no harm braking them...you ever taped somthing off TV?? ....CROOK!....
n e way the proof is in the pudding ...we are all using top class software that has been going for YEARS and it does not look like its going to stop in a rush!! ...so hacks are simply not effecting people who earn a living of it...simple as that!
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