K
Kevin Blight
New member
Re: Response to Kevin
Exactly right.
MercyfullMusic said:
Exactly right.
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
pkmusic said:
Im attempting a english/spanish hybrid song right now......it will be co-written,recorded,and produced by Eddy(esco1).....keep a lookout in the mp3 clinic for it.......
WATYF
...happier than you.
You know... why is it that when people have a complaint about Christians, they just can't help but get some kind of unnecessary derogatory remarks in.Kevin Blight said:
Not that it hasn't already been mentioned... but... uh.... hello?? kettle??? this is the pot. You're black.
I like how you open-mindedly, and tolerantly lumped the entirety of a demographic group into one pot so you could piss all over them.
So anyway... you had a semblance of a point, up until you started mumbling that hypocritical nonsense.
I've grown up around Christian music... and most of it I can't stand. But ya know what... there's three major points upon which I will disagree with you.
1) Some of it isn't made to be the greatest creative force ever to hit the earth. Sometimes, the artists who make it are more intent on conveying a positive message than they are concerned about making a new, amazing song that's better than anything out there. I may not necessarily have the desire to listen to that type of stuff... but it's their business where they want to put their emphasis.
2) It's the same for every genre. The crap that makes it "big" is usually exactly that.... CRAP. I can't even begin to count the number of songs I hear on mainstream radio every day that I think are absolute trash. And yet, people just lap it up like it's the last drop of water they'll ever drink. Popular music will always have a spoon-fed, marketed hype and lack of creativity to it... as long as there is money to be made... money will be the prime focus... not the music. But... just like mainstream secular genres... you will have your lesser-known "diamonds in the rough"... and you will have your cheese-ball wannabes... and you will have your well-marketed, mainstream crap.
3) Who died and made you God? Who the hell are you to decide what people can and can't write songs aboot?
Seriously... there's garbage playing on radio stations all over the world talking aboat the most despicable crap you can think of... and if I don't like it... I turn the freaking station. And yet... somebody wants to write a positive song about their beliefs and something that they deal with in their every day life (in the same exact way that other artists write crap about "bangin hoes" and doing drugs and gang violence and whatever) and somehow that's just too much for you to handle, and deemed as "trying to cram their beliefs down our throats". Puh-lease. Maybe if you could get over your anti-Christian bigotry a little, listening to a Christian song wouldn't seem like such a big deal anymore.Now... having said that... I agree that most of the mainstream CCM is garbage. And yes, it's because they have a lower standard. And yes, it's partially because the focus is a little more on the message than it is on the music. I've been around Christian music all my life and I really only have a very limited number of Christian bands who I have the slightest bit of respect for, or who I listen to regularly. It would be nice if the bar was raised a little... but frankly... it would be nice if the bar was raised a little in pop music and rap and R&B and a host of other genres, so I don't think I'll be getting my panties in a bunch aboot it any time soon.
WATYF
M
MercyfullMusic
New member
WATYF
WATYF,
This is exactly what I'm talking about. The world doesn't need to be confronted by Christians more on their bad attitudes, etc. The world needs to understand why we choose to be different. They only see that WHEN we are different.
I think it's funny that in scripture when Jesus was here He essentially told His disciples, "How long do I have to endure you people, don't you get it?" And these guys were with Him all the time! That's why the message is so important and not the messengers, because even if we hung around God all the time we still wouldn't understand how to treat each other because His goodness is so contrary to our human tendencies of sin. So if I have one message for all the Christians on this thread it's stop bragging about being different and start being different. Then when they wonder we we aren't like everyone else they will CARE to listen to what we have to say. And maybe they can be different then too.
It's going to be interesting when we finally see Him in glory. I think we'll all be silent for quite awhile.
WATYF,
This is exactly what I'm talking about. The world doesn't need to be confronted by Christians more on their bad attitudes, etc. The world needs to understand why we choose to be different. They only see that WHEN we are different.
I think it's funny that in scripture when Jesus was here He essentially told His disciples, "How long do I have to endure you people, don't you get it?" And these guys were with Him all the time! That's why the message is so important and not the messengers, because even if we hung around God all the time we still wouldn't understand how to treat each other because His goodness is so contrary to our human tendencies of sin. So if I have one message for all the Christians on this thread it's stop bragging about being different and start being different. Then when they wonder we we aren't like everyone else they will CARE to listen to what we have to say. And maybe they can be different then too.
It's going to be interesting when we finally see Him in glory. I think we'll all be silent for quite awhile.
WATYF
...happier than you.
Not that I disagree with you... but I don't mind using words, as well as setting an example.
Prov 26:5 "Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes."
WATYF
(of course, the previous verse, in a kind of dichotomous way, warns against doing the exact same thing... it's a fine line... but I just love walkin' it.
)
Prov 26:5 "Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes."
WATYF
(of course, the previous verse, in a kind of dichotomous way, warns against doing the exact same thing... it's a fine line... but I just love walkin' it.
)
P
pkmusic
New member
You are right about CCM. But I honestly believe it's changing and will become better. I think the standards of christian music will get better.
WATYF,
You are right about R&B, rap, and pop. My opinion is that it seems to me that these are folks that couldn't make it in the secular industry so they get into the gospel thing. I am hoping to raise the bar at least starting with rap. Hopefully I can have something ready to post at the Mp3 Clinic.
WATYF,
You are right about R&B, rap, and pop. My opinion is that it seems to me that these are folks that couldn't make it in the secular industry so they get into the gospel thing. I am hoping to raise the bar at least starting with rap. Hopefully I can have something ready to post at the Mp3 Clinic.
G
gascap
New member
Hi All,
I've been reading this thread for a while....provocative to be sure.
I'm a Christian, but honestly what I've heard from the so-called Contemporary Christian Music genre does very little for me spiritually or musically...and please know that I'm very open-minded about it. CCM doesn't piss me off, however.
On the other hand, I know many other songs and music by the likes of Peter Gabriel, U2, Paul Simon, Bruce Springsteen, ...on over to such oldies such as Beethoven, Debussy, and Mozart - which when presented correctly in the worship setting, can have MUCH impact. Obviously there are others that are strong too. Folks may disagree entirely with this idea in general. That's OK too.
When our baby was blessed, I played "Bridge Over Troubled Water" on the viola/violin while the lyrics where projected on a screen (changed "Sail on silver girl" to Sail on little one"...ha!)
Anyway, that song said it all and people were moved.
To me, certain songs and music by folks like these is substantive and lyrically inspiring. Do they make mention of Jesus specifically?...maybe not, but the reactions I've had when using appropriate secular stuff in church has always met with enthusiasm and appreciation.
I guess my point is that Christian music has always been a part of my listening for some 38 years now (...just no bin at Tower to lump it all in)...and to this day I've NEVER had a more religious experience than when I got to be a part of Beethoven's Ninth in college. Truly magnificant work.
I realize that CCM is a genre that makes folks alot of $$$...and if folks are moved and inspired through the genre, THAT's great! Personaly, I just hope that its musical and lyrical contect improves. Either way, inspring and moving music is all around so I'm not too worried.
Well, that's my .02 worth.
Thanks!
I've been reading this thread for a while....provocative to be sure.
I'm a Christian, but honestly what I've heard from the so-called Contemporary Christian Music genre does very little for me spiritually or musically...and please know that I'm very open-minded about it. CCM doesn't piss me off, however.
On the other hand, I know many other songs and music by the likes of Peter Gabriel, U2, Paul Simon, Bruce Springsteen, ...on over to such oldies such as Beethoven, Debussy, and Mozart - which when presented correctly in the worship setting, can have MUCH impact. Obviously there are others that are strong too. Folks may disagree entirely with this idea in general. That's OK too.
When our baby was blessed, I played "Bridge Over Troubled Water" on the viola/violin while the lyrics where projected on a screen (changed "Sail on silver girl" to Sail on little one"...ha!)
Anyway, that song said it all and people were moved.
To me, certain songs and music by folks like these is substantive and lyrically inspiring. Do they make mention of Jesus specifically?...maybe not, but the reactions I've had when using appropriate secular stuff in church has always met with enthusiasm and appreciation.
I guess my point is that Christian music has always been a part of my listening for some 38 years now (...just no bin at Tower to lump it all in)...and to this day I've NEVER had a more religious experience than when I got to be a part of Beethoven's Ninth in college. Truly magnificant work.
I realize that CCM is a genre that makes folks alot of $$$...and if folks are moved and inspired through the genre, THAT's great! Personaly, I just hope that its musical and lyrical contect improves. Either way, inspring and moving music is all around so I'm not too worried.
Well, that's my .02 worth.
Thanks!
C
Chrisjob
New member
I've only read the last page of this thread, so Im not entirely in tune with the context that this last discussion has appreared, but Im comforted in hearing that other's are experiencing being let down by being a musician (who expects much) in worship settings.
My solution: Write your own. The songs being sung in my college group were so terrible, I almost found my self laughing. So I pulled the guitar player aside, and said, this is how you play this song- play it next week. And he did, and everyone loved it. So I kept at them. The writing process itself has been very fulfilling, but I can also tell that my tunes hit the right spot in the individuals for whom the traditional praise music wasn't working.
Cheers,
Chris
My solution: Write your own. The songs being sung in my college group were so terrible, I almost found my self laughing. So I pulled the guitar player aside, and said, this is how you play this song- play it next week. And he did, and everyone loved it. So I kept at them. The writing process itself has been very fulfilling, but I can also tell that my tunes hit the right spot in the individuals for whom the traditional praise music wasn't working.
Cheers,
Chris
dafduc
New member
Chrisjob said:
I ran into that a lot when I was running a LifeTeen (Catholic) music program a few years back. That was maybe the MOST writing I ever did in a short period of time...
You just wanna make sure (a) you're on target theologically and liturgically, and (b) you're not leaving your assembly in the dust. But I've also found that the conservatory types who run things in the churches and publishing houses often have no clue what's easy or hard for an assembly - they equate "hard-to-read" with "hard-to-sing", and this is often not true, especially with syncopation.
Daf
dafduc
New member
Gidge said:
I've got a Gloria with the refrain in Spanish and English - that's as close as I get...
Daf (bought a Learn Spanish CD 2+ years ago, still haven't broken the shrinkwrap)
G
gascap
New member
Yes! Coming up with original material/arrangements is often the best way to go...and can save much time.
P
pkmusic
New member
gascap you are right about CCM in the most part. 90% of the music is like 10-20 years behind. But, I must say that some of the worship songs are awesome. Although the Praise in P&W is behind a little, the worship part of it CCM is doing good. Michael W. Smith has some good worship songs, Third Day, and more!
I love spanish music and was never really into the P&W style of America. But when you hear songs like "Breathe" from Michael W. Smith, your spirit has to be moved by that. That song is awesome!
I think CCM is for contemporary Christians only. Christian music needs to aim at making it for everyone. So when someone who does not care for Christian beliefs listens to it they can say "that is an awesome song!"
I love spanish music and was never really into the P&W style of America. But when you hear songs like "Breathe" from Michael W. Smith, your spirit has to be moved by that. That song is awesome!
I think CCM is for contemporary Christians only. Christian music needs to aim at making it for everyone. So when someone who does not care for Christian beliefs listens to it they can say "that is an awesome song!"
WATYF
...happier than you.
When I speak of CCM I am completely excluding P&W. That's a whole different ball game.
I've played in worship bands for over ten years now, and I've heard some really bad P&W tunes... but I've also heard some great ones... and some of the best worship tunes, these days, come from CCM artists. Third Day has a gift for making great, simple, heart-felt worship tunes. So do people like Jennifer Knapp, Delirious, and others.
I just wanted to make that distinction. There is a vast difference (in design and purpose) between CCM and P&W in general. When it comes to P&W, the musical "talent" is much less important than the annointing behind the song itself. Of course, the talent needs to be substantial enough to support the tune, but a truly annointed P&W song, in the hands of even a remotely capable musician, can sound like the most beautiful thing you've ever heard.
WATYF
I've played in worship bands for over ten years now, and I've heard some really bad P&W tunes... but I've also heard some great ones... and some of the best worship tunes, these days, come from CCM artists. Third Day has a gift for making great, simple, heart-felt worship tunes. So do people like Jennifer Knapp, Delirious, and others.
I just wanted to make that distinction. There is a vast difference (in design and purpose) between CCM and P&W in general. When it comes to P&W, the musical "talent" is much less important than the annointing behind the song itself. Of course, the talent needs to be substantial enough to support the tune, but a truly annointed P&W song, in the hands of even a remotely capable musician, can sound like the most beautiful thing you've ever heard.
WATYF
dafduc
New member
WATYF said:
Well, sorta. A lot of P&W choruses began their lives as CCM songs.
Some Catholic churches have been trying to work these into their liturgies, and just don't understand that the chorus is the thing. So you get them trying to have the assembly sing the verses to Awesome God or Shine Jesus Shine, and getting all upset 'cos it's not working. Duh. Have a soloist sing the verse, or, even better, skip the verses. The praise is better than the theology in those tunes anyhow.
Funny, the same bunch can do the Taize thing (same concept, but less pop) and not bat an eye...
Daf
M
MercyfullMusic
New member
Worship
Great comments WATYF,
As a musician in several Worship bands as well as a leader of my own band with original tunes I can relate to this alot. I play mainly with 2 different Churches. They couldn't be more light years apart. One is a very large Church, lots of $$$ for great sound equipment, and they bring in very good session players which are not cheap. However the congregation is very reserved and kind of lifeless. My home Church is alot smaller, not alot of money, in fact we meet in a high school performing arts center (this is after 8 years in a junior high school cafeteria). The other players in the worship band are alright, basically competent, however the congregation is completely involved in Worship enthusiastically. At the first Church I learn parts off the CDs and we play them back note for note. I really have to rehearse! At my home Church I get to improvise more, much less structured. I have learned to love aspects of both situations.
The toughest thing for me is being a musician and being in the congregation at my home Church. I hear all the bad notes, etc. from the less competent players and it really distracts me in Worship, however this is really all my own doing because people who are not musicians are really able to focus on God completely and tune out the musical part. It's something I struggle with and I'm always trying to focus more on Worshipping myself rather than just what I'm hearing.
Anyways I think it's awesome how God uses different people in different ways to reach different groups. Just being a part of it all in some way is awesome. And WATYF you're completely right, I can be repeating the simplest guitar part over a Praise and Worship chorus, but when everyone's Worshipping and you feel the Holy Spirit move. It's like a pat on the back saying "I am pleased with you." Those moments are awesome!!!
Great comments WATYF,
As a musician in several Worship bands as well as a leader of my own band with original tunes I can relate to this alot. I play mainly with 2 different Churches. They couldn't be more light years apart. One is a very large Church, lots of $$$ for great sound equipment, and they bring in very good session players which are not cheap. However the congregation is very reserved and kind of lifeless. My home Church is alot smaller, not alot of money, in fact we meet in a high school performing arts center (this is after 8 years in a junior high school cafeteria). The other players in the worship band are alright, basically competent, however the congregation is completely involved in Worship enthusiastically. At the first Church I learn parts off the CDs and we play them back note for note. I really have to rehearse! At my home Church I get to improvise more, much less structured. I have learned to love aspects of both situations.
The toughest thing for me is being a musician and being in the congregation at my home Church. I hear all the bad notes, etc. from the less competent players and it really distracts me in Worship, however this is really all my own doing because people who are not musicians are really able to focus on God completely and tune out the musical part. It's something I struggle with and I'm always trying to focus more on Worshipping myself rather than just what I'm hearing.
Anyways I think it's awesome how God uses different people in different ways to reach different groups. Just being a part of it all in some way is awesome. And WATYF you're completely right, I can be repeating the simplest guitar part over a Praise and Worship chorus, but when everyone's Worshipping and you feel the Holy Spirit move. It's like a pat on the back saying "I am pleased with you." Those moments are awesome!!!
flapo1
New member
pkmusic said:
I do, brother. I'm from Mexico and, well... it's kinda natural to me
J
jimihey
New member
Now,
I am a christian.
I have played in a christian band for many years.
I think it's all about the "anointing of the song/musicians" basically.
When it comes down to it....you know when the spirit is in what you are doing.
At these points I have no difficulty in zoning out the music.
There is no feeling or drug in the world that can touch that "wind behind your back" sensation when the spirit moves.
(Those of you who do drugs...this God thing, is way better: no back ache, yawning, shivering or diarhoea the next day..and you wont end up, alone and selling yourself and everything you own for a few rocks/bags.)
As far as good CCM is concerned - in my country, the idea that a bunch of christians rushing out and effecting the charts is laughable.
The charts over here - just like in America are pretty dependant upon the industry money (and will) behind your single. Which incidently is nothing about you or your beleifs ..or indeed any of the subtlety behind a crackin' song, it is purely to do with units moved and short term profit/longer term marketability.
Anyone who thinks the charts reflect the buying public reality is being a little niaive. Those of you contracted to a label or making your money out of music will doubtless agree.
This is the bit they don't tell you about.
The funny thing is though that God is bigger than any record company, A&R dept, whatever... If god wants to use your music. Brothers, it will happen, you won't expect it, you certainly can't plan for it.
However the real blessing is that moment, that feeling when you can feel the spirit moving, your voice has no top or bottom and the guitars just sing.
In and of itself there is no greater reward.
I have no idea why I typed the above...ah well maybe somone will read it one day..
There is nothing finer than people in praise and worship to an anointed song - and - for those who are interested - if you happen to have written that song, It isn't pride you feel, it's humbleness, it's a sense of blessing and thanks.
The "how talented am I?" thing just doesn't happen.
My 2 cents.
Iain
I am a christian.
I have played in a christian band for many years.
I think it's all about the "anointing of the song/musicians" basically.
When it comes down to it....you know when the spirit is in what you are doing.
At these points I have no difficulty in zoning out the music.
There is no feeling or drug in the world that can touch that "wind behind your back" sensation when the spirit moves.
(Those of you who do drugs...this God thing, is way better: no back ache, yawning, shivering or diarhoea the next day..and you wont end up, alone and selling yourself and everything you own for a few rocks/bags.)
As far as good CCM is concerned - in my country, the idea that a bunch of christians rushing out and effecting the charts is laughable.
The charts over here - just like in America are pretty dependant upon the industry money (and will) behind your single. Which incidently is nothing about you or your beleifs ..or indeed any of the subtlety behind a crackin' song, it is purely to do with units moved and short term profit/longer term marketability.
Anyone who thinks the charts reflect the buying public reality is being a little niaive. Those of you contracted to a label or making your money out of music will doubtless agree.
This is the bit they don't tell you about.
The funny thing is though that God is bigger than any record company, A&R dept, whatever... If god wants to use your music. Brothers, it will happen, you won't expect it, you certainly can't plan for it.
However the real blessing is that moment, that feeling when you can feel the spirit moving, your voice has no top or bottom and the guitars just sing.
In and of itself there is no greater reward.
I have no idea why I typed the above...ah well maybe somone will read it one day..
There is nothing finer than people in praise and worship to an anointed song - and - for those who are interested - if you happen to have written that song, It isn't pride you feel, it's humbleness, it's a sense of blessing and thanks.
The "how talented am I?" thing just doesn't happen.
My 2 cents.
Iain
M
MercyfullMusic
New member
Iain
Iain,
Awesome post!
Amen.
Iain,
Awesome post!
Amen.
C
chazba
terminally hip
Glad to see that this thread still lives. George Parler , who started it sometime last year, made an excellent point about Christian Music by saying that there are two basic types, Horizontal and Vertical. The Horizontal is the stuff that we play and sing for each other for encouragement in our walk, the Vertical is directed Upward to the throne of GOD in the form of Praise and Worship (P&W)
I do a lot of crosscountry driving and as a result I have learned that there are lots and lots of styles in CCM, ranging from HipHop
and rap , R&B, Metal (lifemetal?) folky, U2 clones, Hootie clones
and just about anything you can classify. Why is it so???
Answer...because it is in lage part being done by youngr people who are already there style-wise. Another and maybe more important reason is that it is aimed at a specific audience. When I am in the Chicago area I can always find at least 1 station devoted to Christian HipHop . When I scan the FM dial I am looking for something that sounds familiar to me and am more likely to stop and listen if I like the style . The message comes if I listen long enough. As I drive out of the area I am more likely to find more mainstream sounding CCM stations till I get acouple of hundred miles south and most of the CCM is modern Southern Gospel style. Of course, this is mostly "horizontal" music, and its purpose is to encourage each other and share experiences to let each other know that we are not alone in our challenges and trials
IMHO
chazba
I do a lot of crosscountry driving and as a result I have learned that there are lots and lots of styles in CCM, ranging from HipHop
and rap , R&B, Metal (lifemetal?) folky, U2 clones, Hootie clones
and just about anything you can classify. Why is it so???
Answer...because it is in lage part being done by youngr people who are already there style-wise. Another and maybe more important reason is that it is aimed at a specific audience. When I am in the Chicago area I can always find at least 1 station devoted to Christian HipHop . When I scan the FM dial I am looking for something that sounds familiar to me and am more likely to stop and listen if I like the style . The message comes if I listen long enough. As I drive out of the area I am more likely to find more mainstream sounding CCM stations till I get acouple of hundred miles south and most of the CCM is modern Southern Gospel style. Of course, this is mostly "horizontal" music, and its purpose is to encourage each other and share experiences to let each other know that we are not alone in our challenges and trials
IMHO
chazba
NLAlston
New member
Re: Christian Music etc
Chazba,
I agree with the above 100%, and prayers will indeed be raised for him - and all others who share those same feelings. I, too, am a very proud, and non-yielding Christian, who has changed his main vein of songwriting to that of contemporary Christian, and some traditional Gospel style quartet music. The little secular stuff that I do is within easy listening, and never risque. God has blessed me with this talent, and it is for Him that I minister in this manner.
ALL PRAISES BE TO GOD.
Blessings,
Nate
chazba said:
Chazba,
I agree with the above 100%, and prayers will indeed be raised for him - and all others who share those same feelings. I, too, am a very proud, and non-yielding Christian, who has changed his main vein of songwriting to that of contemporary Christian, and some traditional Gospel style quartet music. The little secular stuff that I do is within easy listening, and never risque. God has blessed me with this talent, and it is for Him that I minister in this manner.
ALL PRAISES BE TO GOD.
Blessings,
Nate