Do you really need expensive stuff?

[darrin_h2000]

You really have to navagate the cheap gear wisely...theres alot of it that will just give you tracks that dont sound good...or enough noise and harshness that will result in not being able to pile on tracks.

Nowdays we have it lucky...the KSM line from shure is the highest reccomended mics by engineers that have recorded LedZeppelin...Steely Dan...etc. You can buy a Preamp modeler from Line6 that does a good job of giving you the same sound as API...Neve...and Avalon. for under $1000...where the real thing will run arround $20,000 for the same 8 channels.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Might be time for a bump.

 

[dintymoore]

I like it to sound really expensive, but that doesn't mean it has to cost a lot.

My car has an expensive feeling ride, but it wasn't expensive. My Neumanns sound expensive, but since they've tripled in value it's hard to think of them as expensive - my Behringer gear cost more in the long run.

Some of the biggest improvements in my studio in the last few years have been from homemade gear that is dirt cheap and sounds better than really expensive garbage.

So for me the trick is how to sound really, really expensive really, really cheap.

 

[TheChikenMaster]

I takes skill to make something cheap sound expensive, but greater skill to make something expensive sound that way.

 

[dintymoore]

I takes skill to make something cheap sound expensive, but greater skill to make something expensive sound that way.

A couple of things came to my mind when I read that. My Stephen Paul U87 is a 4-5K mic. It's almost impossible to get a bad sound out of it. You'd have to work on it.

Same with my KM84's. I read here about people mic'ing acoustic guitars and having trouble. If you use my two KM84's, pretty much no matter what you do it sounds incredible through my Jensen mic pre. Sure, there's better mic positions, but in both these cases I'd say excellent gear makes it extremely easy, whereas before, when I was doing it with say an SM57, I'd be tweaking and eqi'ing for hours and still not like it.

Overall I do catch your drift though, which is basically that knowledge is way more important than tools, and for sure that's true.


Growing up, there were a few drummers that I knew that had fathers who were pro drummers. Man did those guys have an advantage! Not only did they have good time right there in their faces but they started out on a tweaked set of Ludwigs with nice Zildjians. Jeff Porcarro (no, I didn't know him) was like that too. So sometimes having good tools makes all the difference. Like flying a crappy helicopter.

 

[Fishmed]

A couple of things came to my mind when I read that. My Stephen Paul U87 is a 4-5K mic. It's almost impossible to get a bad sound out of it. You'd have to work on it.

Same with my KM84's. I read here about people mic'ing acoustic guitars and having trouble. If you use my two KM84's, pretty much no matter what you do it sounds incredible through my Jensen mic pre. Sure, there's better mic positions, but in both these cases I'd say excellent gear makes it extremely easy, whereas before, when I was doing it with say an SM57, I'd be tweaking and eqi'ing for hours and still not like it.

Overall I do catch your drift though, which is basically that knowledge is way more important than tools, and for sure that's true.


Growing up, there were a few drummers that I knew that had fathers who were pro drummers. Man did those guys have an advantage! Not only did they have good time right there in their faces but they started out on a tweaked set of Ludwigs with nice Zildjians. Jeff Porcarro (no, I didn't know him) was like that too. So sometimes having good tools makes all the difference. Like flying a crappy helicopter.

I agree with your post. It does take great skill to make crappy gear sound not as crappy. I think with gear like that you have to work twice as hard, first to work past the inefficiencies of the gear and then to get the signal to sound the way you want it to. With excellent gear you can skip the first step and start shaping the sound you want. So whereas crappy gear may safe you immediate money, you loose money down the road in the extra time you spend trying to make it work for you.

A good example: You can save money with a handsaw to save money, but you will wear yourself out using it. You’ll find yourself focusing more on cutting wood than actually building your project. Having power tools will allow you to spend less time on the smaller things and more time on the bigger picture. The small things are important, but not at the expense of everything else. It the same time, if you have very little skills to build, you can still hose things up with the power tools.

When I have to buy the more expensive gear, I justify it knowing that it will allow me to do my work in a shorter amount of time and with better results.

 

[mshilarious]

Maybe an SM57 vs. a KM84 on acoustic guitar is hand tool vs. power tool, but generally speaking, once you're in the same class of gear (in this case, SDCs), they are all power tools.

The Alan Parsons forum on GS is hilarious. People are like, how did you get that get drum sound on X record from 20/30/40 years ago? And Parsons is like, I do the same thing every time, I just set up the same mics in the same place and I get a good sound in 15 minutes. So is it the mics, is it Parsons, or is it a pro drummer with tuned drums in a really good room?

So far they have asked him that question about 400 times, desperately hoping that he'll change his mind and tell them his secret gear

 

[Fishmed]

Maybe an SM57 vs. a KM84 on acoustic guitar is hand tool vs. power tool, but generally speaking, once you're in the same class of gear (in this case, SDCs), they are all power tools.

The Alan Parsons forum on GS is hilarious. People are like, how did you get that get drum sound on X record from 20/30/40 years ago? And Parsons is like, I do the same thing every time, I just set up the same mics in the same place and I get a good sound in 15 minutes. So is it the mics, is it Parsons, or is it a pro drummer with tuned drums in a really good room?

So far they have asked him that question about 400 times, desperately hoping that he'll change his mind and tell them his secret gear

Ok, we can use microphones for the example. Yes you can use both mics to record with, but you would have to spend more time and effort with the SM57 to get it to sound as nice as the KM84. If you do not have the right skills and experience, it would take you even longer, if at all, to get to the same sound quality produced by the KM84.

 

[XLR]

All other things being equal (good sounding source, intelligent use, etc), IME good cheap stuff usually has an operational "sweet spot" that's much narrower than that of corresponding good high end gear.

But what is "good", heh? Some cheap stuff is blurred sounding by nature - like a Bluetube pre with the toob drive knob turned up. Some cheap stuff is harsh sounding by nature - like an AKG C1000. But even those can also be used well by the right person on the right source. Ain't no hard and fast rules you can go by.

 

[XLR]

you would have to spend more time and effort with the SM57 to get it to sound as nice as the KM84. If you do not have the right skills and experience, it would take you even longer, if at all, to get to the same sound quality produced by the KM84

Re the sm57 (apple) compared to a km84 (orange), I think when you're comparing cheap to expensive you have to make sure you're comparing a cheap apple to an expensive apple. You could compare an mxl603 to a km84. But a 57 isn't a similar type of tool IMO.

 

[mshilarious]

Meh, I think the KM84 is overrated. Joly just did a comparo, hasn't released the results, but I'm betting the boxy midrange-y one was the KM84.

Everything is overrated. I used to record ac gtr with an SM57, when that was all I had. Then I got an SM94, then SM81, then KSM141 (which is a really nice mic, maybe that is just "rated" ). All of those work and don't take that long to set up. If it takes more than three tries at positioning, you're either doing it wrong or the guitar is a piece of crap or the guitarist can't play. Or you need new strings. Or the room is garbage.

Actually, if the room was filled with garbage, it would probably help

 

[Fishmed]

Re the sm57 (apple) compared to a km84 (orange), I think when you're comparing cheap to expensive you have to make sure you're comparing a cheap apple to an expensive apple. You could compare an mxl603 to a km84. But a 57 isn't a similar type of tool IMO.

I was going to use for comparison a Shure C606 and a Shure SM7 on toms, but I used what was already posted. At least the are used for the same purpose, to pick up sound. Apples and oranges is more like comparing an ART PRO VLA II Tube Compressor to a Manley Massive Passive. I do see your point though.

 

[Fishmed]

Meh, I think the KM84 is overrated. Joly just did a comparo, hasn't released the results, but I'm betting the boxy midrange-y one was the KM84.

Everything is overrated. I used to record ac gtr with an SM57, when that was all I had. Then I got an SM94, then SM81, then KSM141 (which is a really nice mic, maybe that is just "rated" ). All of those work and don't take that long to set up. If it takes more than three tries at positioning, you're either doing it wrong or the guitar is a piece of crap or the guitarist can't play. Or you need new strings. Or the room is garbage.

Actually, if the room was filled with garbage, it would probably help

I do agree with you that there is some expensive gear out there that is overrated as its quality exceeds the needs of the studio it resides in. I think in those cases you have gone past the point of diminishing returns in that the same funds could have been better used to improve another area of the studio while still purchasing a lesser priced piece of gear that met the needs of the studio. As with this whole thread, it boils down to your skill, experience, and knowing your limitations.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

It also boils down to whether you want accuracy or flattery on a particular track, and what mic will deliver the desired level of performance? For some applications, it may be an expensive Neumann U67 - or it could be an MXL 960 - or a Shure SM57.

The answer is not always that easy.

Usually, the correct answer is yes, no, maybe, or it depends.

 

[Marik]

Meh, I think the KM84 is overrated. Joly just did a comparo, hasn't released the results, but I'm betting the boxy midrange-y one was the KM84.

Glad I am not alone here. There are plenty of so much better mics out there for quite a bit cheaper...

Best, M

 

[dintymoore]

The sound I look for in mics is specifically the Neumann sound. I know only one way to get it.

About 15 years ago I was wondering how a very successful engineer here in Hawaii, Jim Linkner got such a good sound on a singer, Theresa Bright. To me she has one of the best sounding voices I've ever heard, just like a bird.

So I phoned Jim and he told me that it was a combination of having a great singer and a KM84. He said that he had just got back from a microphone symposium in Switzerland and had an evening where he had a private conversation with Alan Parsons. Alan told him that the KM84 was his favorite mic and that he'd used it for the vocals on Dark Side of the Moon.

That's the advice that made me buy a pair of KM84's. And people will say all kinds of things like they are overrated but I have to side with Alan.

Based on track record, I'd value Alan's opinion over most.

 

[mshilarious]

Based on track record, I'd value Alan's opinion over most.

OK then, he just told you to buy an AT4033.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/q-en...ons/489785-read-statement-you-about-mics.html

Keep in mind there were many fewer choices in 1973. None of the Shure mics I listed existed then; the AT didn't either.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Yes, Alan's remarks are a bit confusing. He also said he used a Neumann U47 in Cardioid mode for main vocals, and in Omni mode for background voices. And in another thread, he said he used the KM86 for a lot of vocals, which was also the vocal mic of choice at Motown during the same period.

 

[dintymoore]

OK then, he just told you to buy an AT4033...

I didn't get that from what he said.

Yes, Alan's remarks are a bit confusing...

There was a lot of drugs being used at that time... it's possible that's a factor. Plus artistic types often will seem " a bit confusing" when pushed by scientists for details, because they don't think that way.

I saw Alan mixing Pink Floyd live in 1975, apparently when he went on that concert tour he had never run sound at a live gig before. Imagine that, you've never run live sound before and your first gig is Pink Floyd doing "Dark Side of the Moon".

For me, a lot of gear has a signature sound from the company that made it. I hear a similarity between all Sony stuff for instance. And JBL stuff. The sound I look for in mics is the Neumann sound. You really can't exactly get it any other way. It's probably because I grew up with that sound in my ear from Beatles and Disney records.

 

[dintymoore]

That's something no one seems to talk about - the Disney stuff, like Mary Poppins for instance, had a great sound - the sound you get when you have lots of expensive stuff!