Do you really need expensive stuff?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
  • Start date Start date
MCI2424 said:
You can just fix it in the mix...
Remember the 70s?
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You mean take a razor blade and cut up the hard disk? God, there have been times that I would've loved to do that.
 
This thread should be kept near the top, so..............BUMP.

:cool:
 
Wow! This thread is great. Harvey, I always gain so much knowledge from your posts. What I like about the recording is that it sounds like you went to there church and recorded them there. Very cool. Thanks for all the cool tips.:D
 
great thread Harvey!

I really appreciate that you are willing to share your experience and expertise in such a "down to earth, matter-of-fact, non-egotistical way. Thanks!
 
I can see that I hafta add one more mp3; the basic tracks that we cut on the first pass. You'll hear how Heather's scratch vocal drive the band, and how the band pushed Heather. That's the core of the song.

I'll try to get that up a little later today, and maybe add an mp3 of just the parts that were added in after the basic tracks (the extra guitars, congas, horns, organ, backup singers and shout track).
 
As promised, here's the rest of the story. This first stereo track is everybody playing together; Jason on bass, Joel on drums, Chris on guitar, Jamel playing keyboard, and Heather singing the lead vocal.



This next stereo track consists of all the fills I added to the above basic tracks; more guitars, congas, organ, horn stabs, 16 backup voices, and Heather (doing a "shout" vocal). Put this and the "first take" mp3 together and you have the finished song.



All the panning and tracking is explained in previous posts.
 
Interesting thread.

I don't really know where it leaves me though as I already have equipment and rooms of a standard to produce this sort of standard of mix and yet I'm a long way short. To be fair though, that has a lot to do with the shoddy musicianship and cheap instruments I'm used to dealing with.

I do genuinely wonder whether it's an inspiration or a reminder of how many miles I am from where I want to be!! :eek:

Nik
 
Hello Mr. Gerst! I know i jumped on this kinda late but, what preamp did you use with those mics? Just wondering. Thanks!
 
tone_aot said:
Hello Mr. Gerst! I know i jumped on this kinda late but, what preamp did you use with those mics? Just wondering. Thanks!
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Just the preamps in the Soundtrac Topaz board; no outboard preamps were used.
 
MCI2424 said:
Nah. I already tried that test and nobody got the digital and analog tracks right. Same for Pro sound web (at one point). Nobody got that right either. This digital vs. analog crap is only valid if you know which one is which. Then you can make up all kinds of reasons why the digital recording sucks...
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C'mon now...it's a well known fact that digital destroys phase angle relationships. Digital cannot replicate sounds that appear to come from "over there", as in 2:00 position at 30 feet away; listen to the album version of Dark Side of the Moon on a decent all-analog system and you'll hear exactly what I'm talking about. Digital destroys these phase angle relationships and give you a 1-dimensional sound and this is why manufacturers can't build a decent digital chorus. I have an all tube McIntosh system (MX110 tube preamp & MA230 tube power amp) with a crappy Technics turntable and a McIntosh CD player. Even my tone deaf wife can tell the night and day difference between the Phono album (full, lush, realistic cymbals and bass that rattles windows) and its CD counterpart (thinner, brassy cymbals and thin bass).

Here....here's a good read from the ultimate home rec'er who's an engineer and knows what he's talking about...flip halfway down to the article...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ar...53&article_id=1840&page_number=2&print_page=y
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Yup, the whole point of my thread is that you can make acceptable home recordings without spending a lot of dollars on fancy equipment.

What is "acceptable" will vary from person to person, but something good enough to get gigs or generate further interest in the music is my definition. In my examples, the band was well rehearsed, and my job was made that much easier. The most expensive mic used was the ATM25 on the kick, at $125. Every other mic was under $100; in some cases, way under that price.

No fancy pre's, compressors, reverbs, or gadgets. Just the musicians, playing their asses off, and me, trying to keep the equipment from getting in the way of that.

Would it have been better with more expensive equipment? Probably, but I can't say how much better. The stuff I used captured the excitement, and that's the most important part of an engineer's job.

The band is happy; they have a CD to sell at their next show, and there's been some indie label interest. If the label is interested in having a better recording (and is willing to pay for it), we can move to the big room and cut their songs with the fancy equipment.
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I gotta tell ya Harvey, you're one helloven engineer; you and Tom Scholz both prove you don't need Neves, Neumanns, and Fairchilds to make great records.

Thank you again for helping all of us - the Gerst Army salutes you! :)
 
You'd get a useful education if you booked some time in Harvey's studio with himself or his son Alex.
 
I have 3 blue Kiwi's, and a Blue mouse I have seen the other side of the fence, and the grass I just came from doesn't look good at all anymore.
 
But................in time you will find out that a Neumann U47 sounds a lot better and so does a well aligned two inch tape machine.

Really, you will find out, one of these days, or in ten years or maybe twenty.
 
DamnYankee said:
C'mon now...it's a well known fact that digital destroys phase angle relationships. Digital cannot replicate sounds that appear to come from "over there", as in 2:00 position at 30 feet away; ]
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Would you mind discussing how the term "phase angle relationships" came to be used to describe stereo images and who started using the term that way and maybe link to a paper or two?
 
Han said:
But................in time you will find out that a Neumann U47 sounds a lot better and so does a well aligned two inch tape machine.

Really, you will find out, one of these days, or in ten years or maybe twenty.
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Yes, that's true, but it really has nothing to do with this discussion. The original question was "Do you really need expensive equipment (to make a usable recording)?" From there, we get into a semantics war; how much is "good enough"?

I've been around U47s and 2" machines most of my life and they're great, if they're working properly. And yes, I love the sound of U47's and U67's, but can you make a decent recording without them, just using less expensive stuff? I believe the answer is yes, but it is harder.

You hafta maybe work harder and work smarter, but it can be done. A lot of people here are just starting out, with minimal equipment and often, minimal knowledge. Before we start recommending that everybody should rush out and buy expensive equipment, why not help people learn how to get the best results out of what they already own?

That was the original purpose of this thread. No expensive mics, no outboard preamps, no expensive comps, eq's, or reverbs were used. Is the final product "good enough"? Not for a major label release, but probably good enough for many indie labels. Certainly good enough to get gigs, to sell, and maybe attract some label interest.
 
I think it's great that Harvey's done this.

But with all due respect, some of you really need to get out. :D The examples in this thread are fine. But there's been a lot of guys -- and for some time now -- doing some really excellent work using tools / components that aren't financially burdening.

This isn't a new phenomenon, by any stretch. Nor is it by any means rare or unusual. And it's being done by people in all music genres and in all parts of the country and globe (there's actually another example of it, as we speak, by a guy accross the pond in the Recording Techniques forum using an old studiomaster board and some cheap mics).

The argument of "do you need expensive stuff" has been settled long ago. This thread isn't representative of some earthshattering discovery. It's basically just a really nice guy in Texas posting some nice work he's done with (what appears to be) a nice / fun group of musicians. But he's been doing this stuff (rather well) for a while now, as have many others.
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