Do you really need expensive stuff?

[nuemes]

This is a great band to use as an example of how far low cost gear can go as the band is talented, tight and sound like they've got good instruments.

I've always felt I could never quite nail recording excellent bass tones and thought it was mostly the bass chain I use, a SansAmp & Joe Meek MC2, until this weekend. A professional bassist came in Sunday with a very good Alembic copy and played 8 songs perfectly with excellent tone using the exact chain. It was pretty much all in his fingers.

I think a lot of us home/small studio guys don't get the opportunity to record trained musicians often and end up defaulting into a nasty catch-22 of 'I need to buy more stuff to make them sound better'.

Thanks for posting this Harvey. Good reality check for me.

This doesn't mean I'm not still on for the group buy though, Chance

 

[boingoman]

Office dividers? Without any kind of foam/insulation or anything?
.

Don't tell the guys in the studio building forum.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Office dividers? Without any kind of foam/insulation or anything?

I know most office dividers do have SOME sound absorption properties but nothing that I'd think would make much of a difference.

Office divider panels have 2" of 703 sound deadener, which is VERY good (and very expensive) sound-killing stuff.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I've always felt I could never quite nail recording excellent bass tones and thought it was mostly the bass chain I use, a SansAmp & Joe Meek MC2, until this weekend. A professional bassist came in Sunday with a very good Alembic copy and played 8 songs perfectly with excellent tone using the exact chain. It was pretty much all in his fingers.

I think a lot of us home/small studio guys don't get the opportunity to record trained musicians often and end up defaulting into a nasty catch-22 of 'I need to buy more stuff to make them sound better'.

Thanks for reminding me about the bass. I lied (Actually, I forgot). For "Right Here", I ran the bass thru a GT Brick DI. For the other two songs, the bass went straight into the board's "Line In".

 

[MCI2424]

Do you really need expensive stuff?

Yes, yes you do.

Funny question.

 

[chance]

I mixed "Who You Are" and "Rejoice" in the computer. I mixed "Right Here" on the board.

I used Adobe Audition, because it's so similar to CoolEdit, which I'm VERY familiar with (I was one of their first customers). I rendered all the tracks in the Mackie, then simply loaded the Mackie Hard Drive into my workstation computer.

We do own a Protools HD system (and an LE system), but I'm not comfortable using either one yet.

For some reason I thought maybe you used T-2 or 3

 

[bubbagump]

Need... no. I don't need it. Want... err.....

What is very telling on this... amazing... a great performance into modest gear beats crap performance into good gear. Not my cup of tea musically, but you can tell these folks have chops and know what they were going to do before hitting the front door.

 

[danny.guitar]

Office divider panels have 2" of 703 sound deadener, which is VERY good (and very expensive) sound-killing stuff.

Oh, I was thinking along the lines of cubicle divider things, you know, the 1/4 to 3/4" things with absolutely no foam or anything.

Edit: About how many do you have? I've been thinking of doing the same thing so I can go between live/damped pretty easily. I'm in an 8x12 room with 8' ceiling. How do you set them up? Do you mount them onto the walls? How?

Sorry for the questions but I've been wanting to do this for awhile.

 

[bubbagump]

703 expensive? I get that stuff for like $10 bucks per 2x4x2" sheet. Compared to other sound materials, it is filthy dirt cheap stuff IMO. Some used office dividers (find them for like $25 at the used office warehouse places, cheaper than getting wood and doing your own) crammed with a sheet or so of 703 make great gobos for cheap.

 

[zbert]

Harvey
First let me say that you have given great advice here and I'm a big fan of yours. It's great to hear what you did with very mid-line equipment. It shows what we can call work toward but lets be fair. You have "ears" that many of us never will have and a musican/recording/design background most of us dream about. You have designed amps for Acoustic, jammed with Hendrix, co-wrote songs with the Byrds. Your coming from another place than many of us and it shows when your behind the board. I guess the only other way I can put it would be Derek Jeter looking at me and saying I just played the entire game with a glove I got at Wal Mart. Don't matter what he used. I'll never play anywhere near Jeter's ability.
But that said I have made many purchases because of the good advice you have given and I am making better recordings all the time. You are great mentor to many of us and thanks for that.
As a drummer I'm dying to hear the raw drum tracks.
I also use a combo of office divders and 703 panels. Really helped my room.
If you ever make up to the NYC area I'd love to pick your brain over coffee.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

About how many do you have? I've been thinking of doing the same thing so I can go between live/damped pretty easily. I'm in an 8x12 room with 8' ceiling. How do you set them up? Do you mount them onto the walls? How?

Sorry for the questions but I've been wanting to do this for awhile.

Two on each wall, arranged so they can overlap to expose or cover more wall as needed. I use some L Brackets, 1/4-20 bolts and nuts to pivot them on the wall. Like this:

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Harvey
First let me say that you have given great advice here and I'm a big fan of yours. It's great to hear what you did with very mid-line equipment. It shows what we can call work toward but lets be fair. You're coming from another place than many of us and it shows when your behind the board.

And that's exactly why I posted to the big mic thread and explain how I think about this stuff. It's not about equipment - it's about mic positioning and understanding how this stuff works to get the best performance out of any gear. Lemme give you an example:

I used the $30 Naient MSH-1O omnis (made by our own MSHilarious) as overheads. Why? Well, for one reason, they were already set up from a previous session, which is about as lame a reason as I can think of. But follow me on this:

They're great at capturing high end detail, which is exactly what I want from cymbal mics. Downside? They're noisy on quiet sources, not very high output, and they can overload if you put them close to a loud source. But these are for cymbals so, noise and low output aren't a problem, and good placement will prevent overload. A little eq tweaking, and I was good to go.

Could I have used a pair of Neumann U-87's or DPA's or MXL 603's or Shure SM-81's or AKG C1000's instead? Of course; gimme anything for cymbals that has a decent top end, and I'll be happy. It might take some screwing around with placement and eq to make me happy, but I'll eventually get the sound I'm already hearing in my head.

If you look at my posts over the years, it's more about technique than product. Sometimes, I'll run across a product that people overlook, but it's always about how to use stuff effectively.

I used eight mics on this drum set; I coulda done it with 4 mics, or 2 mics, or just 1 mic. It woulda taken more time to get the sound, but it's not impossible to do. You just hafta think about how this stuff works and what you need to do to accomplish the task.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

703 expensive? I get that stuff for like $10 bucks per 2x4x2" sheet. Compared to other sound materials, it is filthy dirt cheap stuff IMO. Some used office dividers (find them for like $25 at the used office warehouse places, cheaper than getting wood and doing your own) crammed with a sheet or so of 703 make great gobos for cheap.

Yeah, but checking behind office buildings is even cheaper. We got all our office dividers (enough for two studios) absolutely free. We also have some free standing curved dividers that are gorgeous. Got 'em the same way - for free.

 

[ausrock]

Geezus..............Harvey, to quote my late grandmother, that was " damn fine, splendid", I couldn't imagine a client not being happy with that result.

Out of curiousity, what was the gear setup for the initial tracks.......how did you avoid excessive bleed between drums, amps, etc., etc?

 

[bubbagump]

Yeah, but checking behind office buildings is even cheaper. We got all our office dividers (enough for two studios) absolutely free. We also have some free standing curved dividers that are gorgeous. Got 'em the same way - for free.

Heh, that too when you can find them. I am also not afraid to go to the used place and ask for their "not fit to sell" heap next to their dumpster or to call me when they get a some "not fit to sells" piled up. I throw a few referrals their way and they are more than happy to let me have their trash. A few coffee stains never changed how a track sounds.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

As a drummer I'm dying to hear the raw drum tracks.

Die no longer; here are the drum tracks to "Rejoice" and "Who You Are". In listening back, some digital garbage got into "Who You Are" (probably from the mp3 conversion), but it'll still give you a good idea of the drum sounds I used. Joel used more cymbals and high hats on "Who You Are" than on "Rejoice". Here are the mp3's:

 

[bubbagump]

I assume these are processed, yes? Ain't no 11x11 room that sounds like that.... or is there?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Out of curiosity, what was the gear setup for the initial tracks.......how did you avoid excessive bleed between drums, amps, etc., etc?

Well, no amps were harmed during the making of these recordings. The guitar came out of the pedal board straight into the mixer. Bass went directly to the mixer line "in". Same with the keyboards, so that left just the drums, congas, and voices to record "live".

I close miked all the drums, so I didn't get too much bleed that affected the final sound. If it was gonna bleed, I just let it bleed. I listed the drum mics used (at the top of this thread) - nothing fancy.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I assume these are processed, yes? Ain't no 11x11 room that sounds like that.... or is there?

What do you mean? Like drumagog or triggers? Nope, those are our real drums (Premier set, with a 12" PorkPie snare); no gates, no triggers, no substitutes.

Here's the drum setup:

 

[bubbagump]

No reverb or compression either (which is what I was meaning)? if so, wowser, that IS a good sounding room.