Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?

[CyanJaguar]

Re: need to clarify

are there rules to writing a melody?

No.

are there rules to writing a GOOD melody?

Yes.

there is only two kinds of melodies.
Good ones and bad ones.

The first rule of writing a good melody is use more than one note.

If you don't follow that rule, you dont get a melody, you just get a long winded 'c' note.

Throw another note in there, by following the simple rule of using more than one note and you'll be on your way to writing a good melody.

But you can listen to those who say there is no rules to writing melodys and just stay on that C# note for the whole song and think its a melody.

but lust like sex, it takes two to make it.

It takes at least two notes to make a melody. Rule #1.

dude, I love how you said it. Even a two year old ca understand this. I am going to start using it as an example of good melody writing.

 

[CyanJaguar]

Toker41:

If you wanna have a hit song, stick to 4/4, have lots of repetition and dont use more than 5 notes in the melody.

The main rule top follow is keep it simple & unclutterd.

Dude, you're COOL, and I can tell that you are probably a gifted songwriter. I love the way with which you present this subject.

Believe it or not, in my quest to find predictable songwriting patterns, I started counting the notes in melodies. I agree that most of the good ones are between 4- and 5 notes, but I have heard some that have six, and in the case of Seal's kiss from a rose, the wildcard part had more than 10 notes

 

[WATYF]

Toker41:
"Good and Bad are a matter of opinion."

Thats right.

And it was a matter of opinion that made "How you Remind Me" a number one song and it's writer a multimillionaire.

Its the audience who decides whether or not your melody is good, not you.
And believe me, a matte rof opinion on the matter can get someone booed offstage.

Just see how your "matter of opinion" works witha crowd of 8,000 people booing your shit off the stage.

I stand by my words. There is only two kinds of melodies. Good ones and bad ones. And an audience of real live people will let you know the difference between the two, real fast.

Your right, it is a matter of opinion, and
a live audience will give you theres everytime. They dont usually dance to chromatic scales in 123/48 time signatures.

But to each there own.

If you wanna have a hit song, stick to 4/4, have lots of repetition and dont use more than 5 notes in the melody.

If you wanna have an unforggetable noodle shit fest, start at A end at Z pay no attention to arrangement, play ina 123/58 time sig, get your singer to sing a chromatic scale over top, ask Yoko to do back ups, and you might have a hit on Mars, but not earth.

there is guidlines ansd rules to follow to please the human ear. And the best know these rules and follow them time and time again.

its the beginners and idiots who think you can start at A end on Z and have a memorable song.

It just doesnt happen.

The main rule top follow is keep it simple & unclutterd.

most listeners classify the rest as noise.

Well a-freaking-men to that...





couldn't agree more.




and yes... you will get frustrated if you always try to write a top ten hit... and do you know why...? Because it's hard... Nothing "great" comes easy.... so instead of "giving up" and just writing mediocre garbage and calling it your "artistic experimentation", why not keep trying to write something great.


Everyone wants other people to like their music. If they didn't... they would never play it front of anyone.. they'd just sit in their bedroom and play their guitar (or whatever) to themselves. Once you bring your music in the public domain, you are essentially saying that you want other people to enjoy what you have created. Because of this, it's silly to get all bent oat of shape when people talk aboot how to make your music more "likable", since getting people to like it is the implied goal.


WATYF

 

[mari]

Some people need rules to write, they provide a guidline. Others write without any knowledge of the rules but yet the rules can be applied to what they write. Which came first, the rules or the writing?

 

[WATYF]

Some people need rules to write, they provide a guidline. Others write without any knowledge of the rules but yet the rules can be applied to what they write.

This is true. Some people are just "born with it". (that's another thing musicians hate hearing. )

Which came first, the rules or the writing?

Let's say that the writing begat the rules.




WATYF

 

[Aaron Cheney]

...and then there is Frank Zappa.
People that try to make EVERY song they write a hit song....end up very frustrated.

I'm not sure the artist ends up frustrated, but the audience sure does....

I think that's one of the reasons why certain albums end up very forgetable, while others stand the test of time. The latter are comprised of a few hits, but also songs that don't fit the 3.5 minute time limit, have "odd" melodies, and miss the other the criteria that make a hit song.

If you put on a Zep album or a Beatles album, the songs have an ebb and flow that makes them so utterly listenable that it's eerie. Every song has its own identity and place within the album. Contrast that with some album with 15 songs, each 3.5 minutes long. This might sound dumb, but on records like that I find that all the "hooks" start to sound contrived and similar. I'd much rather listen to "When the Levee Breaks".....

I guess my point is... you can look at songs individually, but you can also look at songs and melody in the context of a collection of songs. The Beatles where masters of this....

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[brando0]

ghetto...i agree as far as song writing is concerned and especially hit song writing...but unfortunately the majority of people..i.e. the audience have really no clue about what's good or not..... they listen to what they're fed through the radio.....and through TV, cuz otherwise it would be impossible to explain the load of crap that hits the charts....now there are a few good writers out there on the charts but a very small minority.
people who go to concerts to watch an artist they've heard on the radio will boo them off only if it's a bad performance...cuz they have already been brainwashed with their music over and over....that's how the biz works, you could be the most talented of songwriters, writing great hits, with great hooks...but if you have no promotion behind you you 'll never come out of obscurity.

also there are good melodies and bad ones but subjectively some may like the less appealing ones to the ones the majority recognizes as "good melodies"

 

[Toker41]

Well a-freaking-men to that...





couldn't agree more.




and yes... you will get frustrated if you always try to write a top ten hit... and do you know why...? Because it's hard... Nothing "great" comes easy.... so instead of "giving up" and just writing mediocre garbage and calling it your "artistic experimentation", why not keep trying to write something great.


Everyone wants other people to like their music. If they didn't... they would never play it front of anyone.. they'd just sit in their bedroom and play their guitar (or whatever) to themselves. Once you bring your music in the public domain, you are essentially saying that you want other people to enjoy what you have created. Because of this, it's silly to get all bent oat of shape when people talk aboot how to make your music more "likable", since getting people to like it is the implied goal.


WATYF

Not always true. I have alot of songs that I like people to hear, and I believe them to be "sellable". However, I have other songs that I don't really care if people hear them or not...some, I think, are good, some are just "different and interesting". Art is not about selling records, that is business...not art. Art is about self expression. However, in the same light...one needs to pay the bills.

 

[WATYF]

Not always true. I have alot of songs that I like people to hear, and I believe them to be "sellable". However, I have other songs that I don't really care if people hear them or not...some, I think, are good, some are just "different and interesting". Art is not about selling records, that is business...not art. Art is about self expression. However, in the same light...one needs to pay the bills.

Yes... this is certainly not a "all-or-nothing" type thing. Obviously, there is no unwritten songwriters law that says that if you play in public, then you're never allowed to write anything other than a commercial "hit" song. I have plenty of songs that I wrote for "expression's sake" that I will never play for anyone else... this is definitely a common thing among song-writers...


but, of the songs that you do bring out into the public arena... the implied goal is to get others to enjoy them.


Also.. I'm not really talking aboot "paying the bills"... because with a mediocre pop song and millions in publicity, you can pay the bills... but that's not art... that's just business... what I'm saying is that a truly great, inspired song will attract people to it and, by natural course, "pay the bills".


Basically what I'm saying is that I'd rather "pay the bills" as a byproduct of making great music... rather than paying the bills by being a good busniessman... or not paying the bills because I sit at home, arrogantly sulking about how I never "made it big" while writing "artistic" garbage that nobody wants to listen to.



WATYF

 

[brando0]

to make $$$ or "pay the bills" you still need to be business minded and business smart..... you need a publishing deal to begin with and that means play by the rules of this music biz.....
and even with a publishing deal whatever song still needs a helluva a lot of promotion otherwise the great song however full of art and good intentions will stay on a shelf.....sad but true.
b

 

[brando0]

"........or not paying the bills because I sit at home, arrogantly sulking about how I never "made it big" while......"

WATFY...... i can relate to that man!

 

[glynb]

If you put on a Zep album or a Beatles album, the songs have an ebb and flow that makes them so utterly listenable that it's eerie. Every song has its own identity and place within the album. Contrast that with some album with 15 songs, each 3.5 minutes long. This might sound dumb, but on records like that I find that all the "hooks" start to sound contrived and similar. I'd much rather listen to "When the Levee Breaks".....
http://www.voodoovibe.com

But you are FAMILIAR with the Beatles and Zep albums, so they sound right and its difficult to imagine the songs in any other order or format - they appear perfect due to familiarity.

It is perfectly possible and fairly easy to contrive a potential hit song with a 'good melody' if you follow all the rules - Stock Aitken and Wareman did it regularly in the '80s. But you cannot make it a hit without promotion and exposure in other words you need money behind you.

Take a favourite song of yours and try to think back to the very first time you heard it. Was it familiar? No. Did you realise at the time it was going to be an all time favourite? Probably not. But after the third or fourth play on the radio you were hooked. Some people can pick out a great melody on first hearing, but most of us need a few plays to get used to it.

Another example. I really love Springsteen's album The Rising. Me and a friend were going to see The Boss play recently and as he hadn't heard much stuff I leant him my copy of the album so he would be familiar with the music prior to the concert. On the day of the concert I aked him what he thought of it, and he said 'crap'. So does that mean the album has no good melodies on it? How can two people's perception be so radicaly different? But then I think back to the first time I heard the album and it didn't grab me immediately, I had to play it a good few times.

Now I am sure that if I could tie my friend to a chair and make him listen to The Rising for 24 hours solid he would at least like a couple of the tunes at the end of it! Similarly if someone tied me to a chair and made me listen to their favourite House Music/Dance/Rap tunes I'd probably start to get it.

So I guess my point is, a good melody has to be heard by people before it becomes recognised as such.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Yeah glynb, I get what you're saying. I just think there is a difference in the way a band approaches their songwriting when they write every song to be a radio hit as opposed to writing an album. A lot of successful songwriters will tell you that you should strive to write every song as a hit, but I contend that if you do you might end up a diminished album as a whole.

I remember reading an article a while back that said if you wanted success as a songwriter, you should examine what sells and write your songs to succeed in that market. It then went on to examine all the songs in the Billboard top 100 over that last 2 years, and found things like 78% of them had soft verses and soaring choruses. 60% had no instrumental solos. 85% got to the choruse within 30 seconds. On and on...... Eventually the article concluded by framing the perfect song based on what was successful in the marketplace.

I guess I can understand the logic if you were trying to sell one song, but wouldn't an album of 15 of those perfect songs suck? I'd much rather go back to the days when you got an album with 10 songs, 3 of which were radio friendly, and maybe 2 of which were long, Led Zepplin-ish diveresions over 7 minutes long.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Hmmm.....

I guess that leaves you with 3 songs that are good but too long for radio play, 1 song that was done as a gag, and 1 song that sucks......

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[WATYF]

to make $$$ or "pay the bills" you still need to be business minded and business smart..... you need a publishing deal to begin with and that means play by the rules of this music biz.....
and even with a publishing deal whatever song still needs a helluva a lot of promotion otherwise the great song however full of art and good intentions will stay on a shelf.....sad but true.
b

Yes.. of course. I'm not saying that if you sit on a street corner playing great music that you'll make a million by default.

I'm just saying that I'd rather pay the bills by making great music and doing a good job of getting it noticed/marketed. Rather than make crappy music and pay a bunch of people to make sure it gets air play.


WATYF

 

[glynb]

I'm just saying that I'd rather pay the bills by making great music and doing a good job of getting it noticed/marketed. Rather than make crappy music and pay a bunch of people to make sure it gets air play.
WATYF

I think most people on this group are with you on that. But there is a 'third way' of course. You can write your own 'from the heart' music most of the time, but also write a 'from the head' song with a view to it getting you some attention. You wirite a deliberately commercial sounding song of the right length, etc, following the rules, in order to get a foot in the door. Once you have that attention then you can bring out your 'good' stuff.

You know people knock the 'one hit wonder' people, but if you think about it they have been very lucky. They can spend a whole career playing music for a living because they had that one hit which gave them a recognisable name. I would settle for that because of the opportunities it would open up. This assumes you manage your career correctly of course.

But yeh, do both commercial stuff and your own stuff and see what comes out.

As for the Beatles, McCartney was the master at knocking out a commercial sounding 2.5 minute song TO ORDER.

 

[chazba]

Having written lots of songs and even made money on a few, I feel that I may have a couple of reflections to add to the mix.

1 ) A great melody will be 100% supportive of a great lyric.
Waddyameanbydat you may well ask. Think of it this way.
Take the melody to Somewhere Over the Rainbow and swap in the most inane mindless drivel you can come up with and I think
you'll get my point. Now that I've said that some hilarious parody
lines are creeping in ...."Somewhere over in Jersey"....etc...etc

2) Great lyrics rarely come easily, often requiring weeks and months of editing and re-writing so don't expect great meolodies to come from anything but your best efforts.

3) Thats What I Like About You has a great melody as surely as
does Over The Rainbow.........( See reflection 1)

4) There are no rules, but there are principles, here's another
Complex emotions infer complex harmonies and vice-versa.
Be aware of syntax and let the development of ideas and
images in the lyric lead and infer harmonic development.
For example ,when I say...."Somewhere over in Jersey"
you probably got a sense of where we might be headed lyricly
and maybe harmonically.

IMHO

chazba

 

[brando0]

WATFY....
i agree with you as far as making it with what you feel is a great quality product but.........
crappy or not you need marketing and part of marketing means buying air time.....EVERYBODY or 98% of record companies do that even though it is illegal.the radio makes the hit nowdays.
that how songs that are not hits end up selling millions of copies.
b

 

[small]

Are there rules for writing melody?

If there are any rules for writing melody the only thing they're good for is breaking.

Follow your instincts, not some book on how to write predictable, disposable product (break this rule too if you like, it might work for you).

Love on!
-small

 

[limoguy]

I believe that there are rules and I find it ludicrous that some people dont believe that there are rules that dictate what a good melody is.

I'd like to see different points of view though, so I would like you all to kindly argue for or against the theory of rules.

I don't know if "rules" is a word I would use to describe this. I can only comment on the country genre in so far as lyrics goes because that's what I write.

What I have learned is there is certain guidelines for writing properly structured "Nashville-style" lyrics. Certain things have to bring closure to a verse, some verses are written in such a way so as to thrust the song forward into the next verse or chorus, giving the song momentum. Some things are done in such a way so as to transfer "power" forward from the lyric in one verse to the chorus and to the next verse.

Having said all that, there are those writers, some who are top notch professionals in their craft, who do break out of the "Nashville format" on purpose. And many times the songs they write are hits. The rule-of-thumb as I have understood it for country lyrics is: Stick with the accepted formats and guidelines until you are comfortabe enough with them to try something unique.

There is no "right or wrong"....but there are some things that are well establish and proven to work time and time again.

Just my .02

Limoguy