Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?

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yes it's true.......but that's why it is called "music business". without the beatles there would never have been "pop music" as we know it..... yet again pop music, even though filled with talented songwriters hasn't reached those quality heights that made the beatles so popular.

Brando
 
I think pinning any kind of rules onto a creative process of any sort is a hindrance. Who cares how it happens if it works? Having said this though, I'm sure there are some song writers who have a more structured approach (their own 'formula') while others just sit and write.

Its a purely subjective process I think.
 
Toker41 said:
Let us not forget that the Beetles were the first "N-sync". Yes they had amazing talant, but Pete Best was a far better drummer than Ringo. The switch was made after they were offered the deal because Pete didn't fit the image.
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Actually, it wasn't the image, I believe. They became dissatisfied with Pete, he became unreliable, and I think they were also dissatisfied with his playing.

Also, if there's one thing I'll never understand is why Ringo gets slated. Ringo was a good drummer! He was innovative, distinctive, and he could keep time. As a rock/pop drummer he was good, and perfect for the Beatles.
 
Ringo didn't even play on more than half of thier studio tracks! Paul is playing drums on MOST of thier first 2 albums! Ringo was choosen for IMAGE only.
 
Toker41 said:
Ringo didn't even play on more than half of thier studio tracks! Paul is playing drums on MOST of thier first 2 albums! Ringo was choosen for IMAGE only.
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Sorry, that's really not true. It wasn't until much later that Paul started doing a few of his own drum parts.

With the exception of one of the versions of Love Me Do (album version or single, I forget which), which Andy White played drums on, it was all Ringo.

It wasn't until much later (White Album era - 1968) that McCartney started doing any drum parts. And even then, it was occasional. On the Beatles albums, Ringo did the vast majority of the drum parts, Paul only did very few.

And you're wrong about Ringo. Ringo was chosen to replace Pete Best when they became dissatisfied with him. Ringo was already in the band before the first Beatles session. And no, he wasn't chosen for image only, you're wrong about that one.
 
I'm gonna look this one up, becasueI don't think I'm that far off base, but....could be wrong
..happens from time to time.
 
I was just reading Toker's post about luck being a huge factor in whether a band makes it or not and wanted to add my two cents worth...

While I think luck comes into it to some degree, without passion you couldn't make it through the tough times and want to continue playing regardless of whether you're a nobody or not. There's also a lot to be said about perseverance and putting yourself in situations where luck could kick in. You can't sit back and wait for a record deal to fall into your lap.
 
You're right about having drive to get you thru till the break comes, and to have you in the right place doing the right thing when it comes. However, the luck is still the deciding factor on whether or not your passion and drive pay off.
 
Toker41 said:
You're right about having drive to get you thru till the break comes, and to have you in the right place doing the right thing when it comes. However, the luck is still the deciding factor on whether or not your passion and drive pay off.
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Yes I think we're reaching some jind of consensus now. You need passion, drive, some talent, some skill, a great stage presence, perseverance, determination. A ruthless streak doesn't go amiss too. For example, you have a girl friend/partner who gives you the old 'Your spending too much time with the band, it's me or them' routine. Now, who do you choose? if you are a ruthless SOB, ruthless enough to make it, you will choose your career every time. Remember wht Lennon said - You have to be a bastard to make it, and The Beatles were four biggest bastards (I paraphrase).

...when you have all of the above you sitll have no guarantee of getting anywhere. The above qualities will put you ahead of the pack. You have all the elements in place to make you stand out above a lot of bands/artists doing the circuit. But you STILL need that stroke of luck, a simple twist of fate.

Incidently, i don't think the music business is unique in this, it applies in most areas of life too - the same could be said for climbing the company ladder in business (even the great stage presence bit, that's what Chief Excutives do best!)
 
c'mon guys...... let's be honest...... ringo was never a good drummer....yes he could do the job and he could sing but never do anything more than the required....he could keep the tempo yes.....ahhh maybe it's just how i see it.
 
need to clarify

are there rules to writing a melody?

No.

are there rules to writing a GOOD melody?

Yes.

there is only two kinds of melodies.
Good ones and bad ones.

The first rule of writing a good melody is use more than one note.

If you don't follow that rule, you dont get a melody, you just get a long winded 'c' note.

Throw another note in there, by following the simple rule of using more than one note and you'll be on your way to writing a good melody.

But you can listen to those who say there is no rules to writing melodys and just stay on that C# note for the whole song and think its a melody.

but lust like sex, it takes two to make it.

It takes at least two notes to make a melody. Rule #1.
 
Re: need to clarify

GhettoWayz said:
are there rules to writing a melody?

No.

are there rules to writing a GOOD melody?

Yes.

there is only two kinds of melodies.
Good ones and bad ones..
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Good and Bad are a matter of opinion.
 
Re: Re: need to clarify

Toker41 said:
Good and Bad are a matter of opinion.
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Not always so. When it's really bad stuff rattles off of shelves but when it's really good the birds gather around to hear like some cheesy disney cartoon.
Dissonance caused by clashing notes sounds bad and few would say a badly tuned guitar is only bad sounding by opinion.
 
Re: Re: Re: need to clarify

jake-owa said:
Not always so. When it's really bad stuff rattles off of shelves but when it's really good the birds gather around to hear like some cheesy disney cartoon.
Dissonance caused by clashing notes sounds bad and few would say a badly tuned guitar is only bad sounding by opinion.
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...and then there is New Kids On The Block.
So maybe you are right....somethings are just BAD.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: need to clarify

Toker41 said:
...and then there is New Kids On The Block.
So maybe you are right....somethings are just BAD.
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don't forget Yoko Ono:eek:
 
Toker41:
"Good and Bad are a matter of opinion."

Thats right.

And it was a matter of opinion that made "How you Remind Me" a number one song and it's writer a multimillionaire.

Its the audience who decides whether or not your melody is good, not you.
And believe me, a matte rof opinion on the matter can get someone booed offstage.

Just see how your "matter of opinion" works witha crowd of 8,000 people booing your shit off the stage.

I stand by my words. There is only two kinds of melodies. Good ones and bad ones. And an audience of real live people will let you know the difference between the two, real fast.

Your right, it is a matter of opinion, and
a live audience will give you theres everytime. They dont usually dance to chromatic scales in 123/48 time signatures.

But to each there own.

If you wanna have a hit song, stick to 4/4, have lots of repetition and dont use more than 5 notes in the melody.

If you wanna have an unforggetable noodle shit fest, start at A end at Z pay no attention to arrangement, play ina 123/58 time sig, get your singer to sing a chromatic scale over top, ask Yoko to do back ups, and you might have a hit on Mars, but not earth.

there is guidlines ansd rules to follow to please the human ear. And the best know these rules and follow them time and time again.

its the beginners and idiots who think you can start at A end on Z and have a memorable song.

It just doesnt happen.

The main rule top follow is keep it simple & unclutterd.

most listeners classify the rest as noise.
 
Ghetto is right of course, there are rules to 'good melody' writing.

I think why some people have taken to disagreeing with this is they have not thought about what is meant by the 'good melody' bit. People have been arguing for experimentation and just letting go to see what comes out ignoring rules. There is nothing wrong with this approach and it can produce some interesting music. However, it is unlikely to produce a 'good melody' that is something quite specific. After all you can usualy hum or whistle a good melody - to me that's the acid test.

Soeone mentioned Yoko ono in a disparaging way. I remeber when Open Your Box came out originaly as a B side to a Lennon song - everyone thought it was crap. Now, years later, it is regarded as pioneering and an avant garde classic. Is it a 'good melody' though - not IMO. But it did result from bending rules and going outside of the 'box' in order to experiment and come up with something different. I think that's what people were so keen to demonstrate when they say ignore the rules and do your own thing.

Ignore the rules and you may come up with something inovative and exciting, but it is not likely to be a 'good melody'.
 
here's one actual rule that tends to be pretty important in writing melodies that either i missed or was not mentioned:

make sure your melody follows an audible path.

by this, i mean that between 2 chords, in most cases, you want one of the following 2 things to happen:

1. at least one note to be shared between the chords (i don't mean in the same octave necessarily, i mean like the A shared between Amin and D)

2. at least one important note to be closely related to a note in the chord preceding it. (example-A#, Bmin, A, D#-note here that the A# and F are just one tone awway from B and F#, Bmin uses notes that are a part of the Amaj scale, and while D# does not necessarily play evenly with A, D# is close to E, G is two tones from A, A# is one tone from A, and that D# wraps around well to A# via the circle of 5ths. these chords will sound a little weird offhand to many, but sing along some of these notes i just outlined, and you could really come up with something beautiful and interesting! (makes a note to mess with these chords since i just pulled them out of the blue for example purposes)). i hope that example makes sense-the feeling that each chord leads to the next is important in songs that are meant to pull the listener in. one of the tricks that the better grunge music would use is to play something like those 4 chords, but in power chord form-A#5, B5, A5, D#5-sounds fairly dissonant, and if you've already calculated how you want the melody to flow, you can have the vocal defining the notes that make those chords major or minor.
looking at this example, btw, i see that it would take some creative singing/writing to make this really flow, but that's why i wanted to use it. try messing with it! listen to how you can play with the vocals!

that's my "real" input, i guess.
 
GhettoWayz said:
Toker41:
"Good and Bad are a matter of opinion."

Thats right.

And it was a matter of opinion that made "How you Remind Me" a number one song and it's writer a multimillionaire.

Its the audience who decides whether or not your melody is good, not you.
And believe me, a matte rof opinion on the matter can get someone booed offstage.

Just see how your "matter of opinion" works witha crowd of 8,000 people booing your shit off the stage.

I stand by my words. There is only two kinds of melodies. Good ones and bad ones. And an audience of real live people will let you know the difference between the two, real fast.

Your right, it is a matter of opinion, and
a live audience will give you theres everytime. They dont usually dance to chromatic scales in 123/48 time signatures.

But to each there own.

If you wanna have a hit song, stick to 4/4, have lots of repetition and dont use more than 5 notes in the melody.

If you wanna have an unforggetable noodle shit fest, start at A end at Z pay no attention to arrangement, play ina 123/58 time sig, get your singer to sing a chromatic scale over top, ask Yoko to do back ups, and you might have a hit on Mars, but not earth.

there is guidlines ansd rules to follow to please the human ear. And the best know these rules and follow them time and time again.

its the beginners and idiots who think you can start at A end on Z and have a memorable song.

It just doesnt happen.

The main rule top follow is keep it simple & unclutterd.

most listeners classify the rest as noise.
Click to expand...

...and then there is Frank Zappa.
People that try to make EVERY song they write a hit song....end up very frustrated.
 
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