Do you always gate your kick mic channel?

  • Thread starter Thread starter BrentDomann
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Actually just to take it a step further, for gate to work really on kick, or any drum for that matter, it really helps if the gate is designed for frequency conscious gating, where you can select which frequencies do or don't activate the gate.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
Actually just to take it a step further, for gate to work really on kick, or any drum for that matter, it really helps if the gate is designed for frequency conscious gating, where you can select which frequencies do or don't activate the gate.

Alan.
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That's what I am thinking if I ever chose to go with the gate on a bass drum. With the LDC example, I won't have a loud cymbal hit or snare hit deactivate the gate, just the booming lows of the bass itself.
 
Being that I'm on the other side of the planet I'm always late to the party but me? No. I don't often gate the kick in the studio but will often live.

I tend to steer clear of gates in general but when I do use one it's never an open and shut case (excuse the pun :)). I like to use gates with an adjustable range (or floor) to simulate some bleed. I find this to be way more natural.

Another thing is to use a dual band gate for difficult sources with lots of bleed such as in the outside kick mic/snare scenario. Another option is to key the outside mic from the close kick mic to make sure the snare doesn't trigger the gate. Of course, using an adjustable floor is always the best option for me in this scenario.

My 2c.

Cheers :)
 
I find the bottom snare mic is usually in need of a gate. It tends to pick up a lot of noise, but when gated out it can help add a nice tone to the snare. I gate the kick sometimes too, but its usually pretty loose. Transient designers really effect the way drums sound in a big way, so they can be very useful if need be.
 
Roozter said:
First I would ask you the question of how did you get to a gate on the kick drum? Did an issue arise, or is it just curiosity? If it's the former, I would suggest looking earlier in your signal path, or even the room, for a solution to the problem that's requiring said gate. If it cant be solved there, use the gate, and in any case, solve it as early in the chain as possible.
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It's mostly curiosity. I'm in the middle of a project that was attempted last year at a drummer's place. The results we unsatisfactory. In these earlier attempts, the drummer had no port on the kick reso. He hits very efficiently, too, which meant the kick mic was out 12 inches from the head. This introduced a lot of bleed and with eq made us start thinking about gating.

This time around I have total control. I have basically the same drum kit at home (I use fewer toms, but it's the same brand, model, and wood), but I'm in my own room. I spent a TON of time tweaking the kit and tuning. I also got ahold of the best snare I could. I treated my room. It's pretty minimal in comparison to what others do, but it cut down on flutter echo and mid-high frequency comb filtering which I believe were the biggest problems. My mic setup is more than satisfactory for me, and I ported the kick so I could get the mic just inside and further isolate that signal.

The results have been much more pleasing. I'm just curious about what others are doing because I'm getting to that point (I believe) of diminishing returns. If a gated kick mic is going to clean out swaths of mud and open up my mix for a beautiful round bass guitar, then sure I'll take a stab at it. I have experimented some on my own and have concluded that it doesn't seem to do that with my setup.

Still, it almost never hurts to get another set of ears or a second opinion.
 
The gate will only get rid of a bunch of mud if there is a bunch of mud coming through the kick mic. Otherwise, it won't.

First you have to figure out what the problem is, then find the tool or technique to fix it.
 
Thanks, Jay. I'm not convinced there's a problem. Not even a hint at this point that there is - I'm just curious if others do it to avoid a problem that I'm not foreseeing.

Your advice is good on its face, and has another point: if it ain't broke...
 
Mo Facta said:
Being that I'm on the other side of the planet I'm always late to the party but me? No. I don't often gate the kick in the studio but will often live.

I tend to steer clear of gates in general but when I do use one it's never an open and shut case (excuse the pun :)). I like to use gates with an adjustable range (or floor) to simulate some bleed. I find this to be way more natural.
Click to expand...

Pretty much the same. I don't gate drums for bleed I gate them for resonance, usually that caused by other loud sounds, like how a bass amp can make a kick drum resonate. Sometimes I'll use a gate to control the resonance of a tom, but I'm working with more drummers who can properly tune their drums so that's becoming more rare.

The problem with gating bleed is that if there's enough bleed to be make you want to gate it out there may be enough to alter the sound when the gate opens.

My "more natural" alternative is a downward expander. Instead of a fixed amount of attenuation below the threshold they attenuate proportional to the signal. And they open faster than gates so you aren't as likely to cut off initial transients.
 
So Boulder (or anyone), is there any reason to gate in the mix if you didn't gate during recording?
 
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BrentDomann said:
It's mostly curiosity. I'm in the middle of a project that was attempted last year at a drummer's place. The results we unsatisfactory. In these earlier attempts, the drummer had no port on the kick reso. He hits very efficiently, too, which meant the kick mic was out 12 inches from the head. This introduced a lot of bleed and with eq made us start thinking about gating.

This time around I have total control. I have basically the same drum kit at home (I use fewer toms, but it's the same brand, model, and wood), but I'm in my own room. I spent a TON of time tweaking the kit and tuning. I also got ahold of the best snare I could. I treated my room. It's pretty minimal in comparison to what others do, but it cut down on flutter echo and mid-high frequency comb filtering which I believe were the biggest problems. My mic setup is more than satisfactory for me, and I ported the kick so I could get the mic just inside and further isolate that signal.

The results have been much more pleasing. I'm just curious about what others are doing because I'm getting to that point (I believe) of diminishing returns. If a gated kick mic is going to clean out swaths of mud and open up my mix for a beautiful round bass guitar, then sure I'll take a stab at it. I have experimented some on my own and have concluded that it doesn't seem to do that with my setup.

Still, it almost never hurts to get another set of ears or a second opinion.
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Think of it this way: Why worry about the bleed on the kit? Do you hear a drum kit with each shell and cymbal isolated? You hear it mixed together as well as reacting to the environment in which you would be standing. Therefore when micing drums I find it essential to record them in a dedicated and suitable room.

If you record with an SM57 or even a U47 inside of a closet, its going to sound like a vocal inside of a closet. Whatever effect something creates, whether it has a name or not, in the studio, just is what it is.

If I record the drum kit to 8-track tape, basically the foundation of my whole recording, I don't think my unfinished basement would be ideal, since one way or another, no matter what I do, it will always have a little unfinished basement mojo going on, which will throw off the whole thing. I can get great guitar/bass/organ/brass sounds in a garage, but drums and vocals are just too much, and too important unfortunately.

One thing you might try is moving your snare/kick around the room and finding where they seem to sound the most focused. You've already treated the room, so that's probably the best thing you could've done.

But like I said, if you must gate, gate it. Because if I was in a garage, I don't care if that's what would always translate through, im going to be forced to EQ and gate pretty aggressively I would imagine.
 
Greg_L said:
You're actually ahead of most of us. You should have answered this thread before it was even posted!
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Ha! You'd think that would be the case but I'm usually asleep when you guys are awake making these posts.

Cheers :)
 
Mo Facta said:
Ha! You'd think that would be the case but I'm usually asleep when you guys are awake making these posts.

Cheers :)
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I am so far ahead of both of you that I think of the answer before you have the question
Alan.
 
@Roozter. The main reason to worry about bleed comes when you are not looking for a 'natural' drum sound. Once you Eq the crap out of the individual drums, then compress the snot out of them, the bleed will sound terrible and be much louder than it should be.

It is also a problem when the drummer plays with the wrong dynamics, like beating the snot out of the snare, while gently tapping on the kick.

Ambience is bleed you want to hear
Bleed is ambience you don't want to hear.
 
BeagleFaceHenry said:
.. is there any reason to gate in the mix if you didn't gate during recording?
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Weird question.. or wording.
The reasons to do it..are what they are. But you typically don't do it in tracking, for a few really practical concerns.
 
Farview said:
@Roozter. The main reason to worry about bleed comes when you are not looking for a 'natural' drum sound. Once you Eq the crap out of the individual drums, then compress the snot out of them, the bleed will sound terrible and be much louder than it should be.

It is also a problem when the drummer plays with the wrong dynamics, like beating the snot out of the snare, while gently tapping on the kick.

Ambience is bleed you want to hear
Bleed is ambience you don't want to hear.
Click to expand...

This is essentially what I was getting at. It is exactly the same reason we went to gating the drums, we were recording in a dingy old basement. But as a strict analog user, and what I would call a traditionalist, I moved towards a philosophy of going from the source to the finished product with minimal outboard gear/processing in between, which leads me to the other basis of my philosophy, which is, if the room isn't up to scratch, we're flat out not recording drums. We aren't even going to attempt it.

So to bypass using "fix it" gear, I'm going to need a sufficient room, period.

But going back to the original subject, I think gates are a consumer driven thing. Just another piece of gear to put a bandage on what your problems really are. By the time these people buy all the miracle-working outboard gear, monitors, microphones, even some types of room treatment products, they've already spent more then they would've just by investing in the best room, great instruments, good mics, and gear that is sufficient to translate those things to a final product with most of the quality intact.

If you truly need the gate, use it. But you need to know when you truly need it, and that is my problem with gates, and with many other types of gear. People don't know when to start, and when to stop, because the quickest solution is the best solution, right?
 
I agree with the room, instrument, mic, performance comments.

I do disagree, somewhat about them being consumer driven. Now there is much less use for them, now that you can just erase everything you dont want to hear.

The 'all mics open' on the drums thing only works for natural drum sounds, which are not appropriate for all tyles of music.

Obviously, gates are essential in larger live sound situations.
 
Farview said:
I agree with the room, instrument, mic, performance comments.

I do disagree, somewhat about them being consumer driven. Now there is much less use for them, now that you can just erase everything you dont want to hear.

The 'all mics open' on the drums thing only works for natural drum sounds, which are not appropriate for all tyles of music.

Obviously, gates are essential in larger live sound situations.
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Agreed.

Although when doing sound at a venue that shall remain nameless, I was put to the sword. The room might as well have been a concrete closet. The instruments were so close together, and the monitors so close to the mics, it became a cat and mouse game of feedback vs bleed from the kit with no real compromise to be had.

Not to brag, but I was forced to put on a clinic in mic placement. :cool: For me it was like a nightmarish geometry test though. Did I mention the friend I was doing sound for was scheduled the same night as a senators birthday party in the other room (that being the "real" live room)? And any disturbances (like massive feedback) may hurt the reputation of my friends group as a live act.

Long story short, I didn't have a gate, and got by perfectly fine without one by simply obsessing over where my mics were placed. I also used a minimal amount of mics, which was probably the biggest advantage I had.

But I have to say, in that situation, I would've welcomed a gate with open arms, considering my only problem at that point would've been fighting the feedback, which wouldn't have been a problem at all. But in the studio, still wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole at this point, as its just a luxury that's going to get in my way.
 
If you are getting too much bleed, then gating might not help unless you are playing a really hard BD like in rock music. In jazz I use eq to focus the BD and minimize the bleed. You might try that instead of gating, which can backfire by cutting off the bloom of the BD.
Rod Norman
Engineer

BrentDomann said:
Or do you let it bleed a little bit? If you use an expander rather than a gate, that applies here.

I don't notice much of a difference in the drum mix or the overall mix either way in my current project, but if it'll clear up significant mud down the road I'll consider it. FWIW, the mic was through a port in the reso head, so there isn't much bleed at all.

Also, do fish fart water?
Click to expand...
 
I don't think you 'always' do anything. It depends on what sound you want, the harmonics of the song, how things are miced and so on. I've done both.
 
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