Do Lyrics Even Matter?

[Jack Russell]

What an artist...


I think that is a very nice piece. You definatley have talent.

Well, thanks very much. I appreciate it. My work either makes an impact or people scratch their head over it. It is sort of Mark Rothko meets Jasper Johns.

I think I've hijack my own thread.

 

[VSpaceBoy]

Well, thanks very much. I appreciate it. My work either makes an impact or people scratch their head over it. It is sort of Mark Rothko meets Jasper Johns.

I think I've hijack my own thread.

Not point to point out the negatives but the first part of my post 'What an artist..' was sarcasim for what I qouted you on.


The second part was authentic though, I think that piece is awesome . I'm a huge fan of Alfred Gockel if you know that stuff.

 

[Jack Russell]

Just to keep this thread on track, for those interested, here is Version II, a revision of the lyrics I posted at the top:

U-571 (Tentative title) (7/30/05)

"(Part I)

Clouds in the blue forgotten--crushed in a velvet sky
a windless age will blow us away,
floating beyond the universe
shattered bridge of agony, depth charge crushing sound*
diving down, the seeker goes on into the void
listen to words that float in the sea
the undertow rolls in sound
undulating silent screams, ghosts live underground
following the anchor chain, 20 fathoms down

Some day she will rise out of the ocean
into the sunlight--starless world reborn an angel
she will rise again out of the water
into the hands that hold the names lost to their destiny
and she will fly

skulls in the sand are hoarding--dust in a white washed orb
this secret grave will show us the way,
silent in timeless anarchy
silver spoons and copper chains, china cups and bowls
sinking down, the sailor calls, screaming through the void
Frozen in shards of ice on the bow
the wreckage is far below
underneath the searchlight beams, steel and broken bone
tangled razor knife-edge wire, crazy worlds unknown

(Part II)

Out of the haze comes the ray of the day
from a skyline fire red glow
and the name from the stern stands for all who remain
in a wreck lost down below
The elegant age is a song in the rain
where the darkness starts to grow
and the end of the reign of the wolf pack age
is a time lost love unknown

One of these days I will know what to pray
for this planet where I roam
at the end of the day all that burns will be gray
and the walrus will not know
The words on the page are a song in the rain
in a silent picture show
and the end of an age speaks to all of the reign
of the time-space afterglow"

------
*I'll tell you one thing: "depth charge crushing sound" is hard as hell to sing!! I might have to change that.

 

[HapiCmpur]

There is also the use of homonyms--words that sound the same but have different meanings. A lyric line that uses a homonym can give a totally different interpretation to a song when heard that couldn't be done with reading the written word. Sometimes songwriters do this on purpose, I imagine (I have, anyway. Then I don't know which one to write down on paper. )

I had a similar experience yesterday while my wife and I were discussing the impact mp3s are having on the degree of sonic quality consumers are willing to tolerate. We found ourselves using the terms "audiophile" and "audio file" a lot, and naturally, since you can't hear any difference between the two in a conversation, we became quite confused.

Jack, I really like your painting/collage, and I don't even know why. I think it's the harmonization of colors combined with the contrast of the sharply defined image in the center against the chaotic background. Does it have a title?

 

[Jack Russell]

Jack, I really like your painting/collage, and I don't even know why. I think it's the harmonization of colors combined with the contrast of the sharply defined image in the center against the chaotic background. Does it have a title?

The title is "Weegwam". It was actually used as a cover on a CD I released in 1996 of the same name. (Went nowwhere, maybe 100 sold. I have about 900 sitting in my basement. ) I've done about 200 similar artworks over the years, and a good number of them are stored away in my basement as well, although I did sell about half of them. The CD was a collection of instrumental music. Uh, it gets a little complicated here, but....each of the collage paintings I do has a piece of music paper as the central theme. The paper has a short theme that I wrote, in some cases just off the top of my head without hearing it. Then I compete the artwork by overlaying paint, photographs, etc. For "Weegwam" I took these short musical tidbits and then composed whole musical compositions based on the theme. Then I later had an art opening, with the CD as the soundtrack.

Otherwise the word 'Weegwam' is meaningless.

Here's a funny story about how I got into doing this kind of art: I had written out a chart of a bass part for the band I was, back in the 80s. We were rehearsing the song and I began making revisions on the bass chart with a magic marker. The song wasn't very good. Then it suddenly struck me that the music score itself was a lot more interesting than what I was hearing, a thing of beauty and art. Thus I glued it onto some artboard and framed it. It just went on from there.

 

[nave]

Ask an instrumental musician if lyrics matter.

Lyrics matter if you want them to matter.

 

[Folkie]

Ask an instrumental musician if lyrics matter.

Lyrics matter if you want them to matter.

The instrumentalist will probably say that lyrics DO matter because if there are lyrics in the song they take priority and then there's less of him in the mix. Fucking lyrics......

 

[Folkie]

Just to keep this thread on track, for those interested, here is Version II, a revision of the lyrics I posted at the top:

U-571 (Tentative title) (7/30/05)

"(Part I)

Clouds in the blue forgotten--crushed in a velvet sky
a windless age will blow us away,
floating beyond the universe
shattered bridge of agony, depth charge crushing sound*
diving down, the seeker goes on into the void
listen to words that float in the sea
the undertow rolls in sound
undulating silent screams, ghosts live underground
following the anchor chain, 20 fathoms down

Some day she will rise out of the ocean
into the sunlight--starless world reborn an angel
she will rise again out of the water
into the hands that hold the names lost to their destiny
and she will fly

skulls in the sand are hoarding--dust in a white washed orb
this secret grave will show us the way,
silent in timeless anarchy
silver spoons and copper chains, china cups and bowls
sinking down, the sailor calls, screaming through the void
Frozen in shards of ice on the bow
the wreckage is far below
underneath the searchlight beams, steel and broken bone
tangled razor knife-edge wire, crazy worlds unknown

(Part II)

Out of the haze comes the ray of the day
from a skyline fire red glow
and the name from the stern stands for all who remain
in a wreck lost down below
The elegant age is a song in the rain
where the darkness starts to grow
and the end of the reign of the wolf pack age
is a time lost love unknown

One of these days I will know what to pray
for this planet where I roam
at the end of the day all that burns will be gray
and the walrus will not know
The words on the page are a song in the rain
in a silent picture show
and the end of an age speaks to all of the reign
of the time-space afterglow"

------
*I'll tell you one thing: "depth charge crushing sound" is hard as hell to sing!! I might have to change that.

Part II is pretty good till you get to the walrus line. I immediately thought of the Beatles I am the Walrus--but can't seem to figure how it fits with your lyrics. Likewise the "time-space afterglow" is a bit obscure to me, but I'm sure you know what it's about.
Interesting homonym set with "rain" and "reign". We mentioned that concept above and here you have provided a perfect example.

Keep at it JR--it's coming together.....

 

[HapiCmpur]

Otherwise the word 'Weegwam' is meaningless.

Says you.

 

[persondude]

HEY, JACK!

Your song kicks ass.

 

[Jack Russell]

HEY, JACK!

Your song kicks ass.

Thanks, man!

 

[Mo-Kay]

as a rapper and hip hop fan...I must say lyrics DO matter...although when looking at the charts....some of my "fellow fans" seem to care less.

 

[Fieva]

Some lyrics I mean to be entertaining and some I have for the purpose of being meaningful so yes it does matter.

 

[Nakatira]

the melody "the music" counts 85 to 15 in my opinion.
very few of the lyrics that Ì`ve heard exeedes the music.

some of the floyd lyrics though do.

 

[VSpaceBoy]

Ya know... I just had an epiphany.



I voted "No" because I didn't think they did matter as much. (read my post for my opinion) But I was just thinking.... What instrumental songs are out there in the top 10..or 20.. or even 100? The only song I can think of that has (ever?) reached any kind of success on the meret of the music was that Gary Hoey cover of hocus pocus.


AND

Why do ppl always want/care about the singer? Nobody cares about the guitar player or bass player! SCREW THE DRUMMER AND THE KEYBOARD PLAYER!!

Hmmm... I guess I voted wrong, the lyrics do matter. If not, the singer could just "Doo wop" his or her way through the song.

 

[Jack Russell]

Ya know... I just had an epiphany.



I voted "No" because I didn't think they did matter as much. (read my post for my opinion) But I was just thinking.... What instrumental songs are out there in the top 10..or 20.. or even 100? The only song I can think of that has (ever?) reached any kind of success on the meret of the music was that Gary Hoey cover of hocus pocus.


AND

Why do ppl always want/care about the singer? Nobody cares about the guitar player or bass player! SCREW THE DRUMMER AND THE KEYBOARD PLAYER!!

Hmmm... I guess I voted wrong, the lyrics do matter. If not, the singer could just "Doo wop" his or her way through the song.

I was watching "Hello World" the other night. There was a band from Germany doing a tune. The singer looked a bit like Sting. They were excellent. Thay sang in German of course, which I don't know. But still I liked it. So that makes me wonder again if the words matter.

I think people are into the singer more because he/she personifies them singing the song inside their own mind.

On the other hand, I've been told that some women will be totally fixated on the bass-players right hand and fingers....

 

[famous beagle]

Ya know... I just had an epiphany.



I voted "No" because I didn't think they did matter as much. (read my post for my opinion) But I was just thinking.... What instrumental songs are out there in the top 10..or 20.. or even 100? The only song I can think of that has (ever?) reached any kind of success on the meret of the music was that Gary Hoey cover of hocus pocus.


AND

Why do ppl always want/care about the singer? Nobody cares about the guitar player or bass player! SCREW THE DRUMMER AND THE KEYBOARD PLAYER!!

Hmmm... I guess I voted wrong, the lyrics do matter. If not, the singer could just "Doo wop" his or her way through the song.

There was a decent amount of instrumental success in the 50s: "Wipeout," "Green Onions," "Pipeline," "Sleepwalker," "Walk, Don't Run," etc. Quite a bit actually.

 

[Folkie]

There was a decent amount of instrumental success in the 50s: "Wipeout," "Green Onions," "Pipeline," "Sleepwalker," "Walk, Don't Run," etc. Quite a bit actually.

There have been a few since, as well--some movie themes that were popular, for example. Also, songs like "Al di la" and "Sukiyaki", where the lyrics are in a foreign language and might just as well be another instrument. Then there are groups like the Scottish rock band Runrig--they sing in Gaelic that no one understands (there's one where it sounds like they're singing "Oh no, Mommie no. No Chucky Cheese for dinner."--hilarious, though the song is supposedly serious.) And groups like Clannad, where the voices are so lush and so processed that you cant understand them even though they're in English.

Takes all kinds.

 

[Supercreep]

SC, I agree mostly with what you are saying, but I'd like to point out that some lyrics actually are poetry. One can set a poem to music and make it a song (the Star Spangled Banner immediately comes to mind as a reasonably well known example.) Not always the case, obviously, but

Garnet Rodgers took a poem from Henry Lawson, put a great melody to it, and ended up with a pretty damn good song. He had to adjust the poem minimally here and there to fit the music (meter in most songs is, of course, tremendously important.

The original poem and a link to the tune is here:

http://ahistoricality.blogspot.com/2005/07/thursday-lyric-after-all.html

And since the poem/lyrics are really good:

After All
Words by Henry Lawson
Music by Garnet Rogers

The brooding ghosts of this dark night
Are gone from wood and Town.
My spirit revives in the morning breeze,
Though it died when Sun went down.
The river is wide, the stream is strong,
And the grass is green and tall.
And I fain would think that this world of ours,
Is a good world, after all.

The light of passion in dreamy eyes,
The page of truth well read,
The glorious thrill in a heart grown cold,
And a spirit once thought dead.
The song that goes to a comrade's heart,
The tear of pride let fall,
My heart grows brave, and the world, to me,
Is a good world, after all.

Let our enemies go by their own dull paths,
Let theirs be doubt and shame.
The man who's bitter against the world
Has only himself to blame.
Let the darkest side of the past stay dark,
And only good recall,
For I must believe that the world, to me,
Is a good world, after all.

It may be that I saw too plain,
It may be I was blind,
But I'll keep my face to the morning light,
Though the Devil stand behind.
Though the Devil may stand behind my back
I’ll not see his shadow fall?
And I'll read, in the light of the Morning Star
Of a good world, after all.

Rest, for your arms are weary, Love,
You drove the worst away.
And the ghost of the man that I might have been
Is gone from my heart today.
We'll live our life for the good it brings,
'Till our twilight shadows fall.
Oh, my heart grows brave, and the world, to me,
Is a good world, after all.

As always, it depends. But look at it this way. A poems job is sometimes different than a lyrics job. Great lyrics read as poetry frequently suck shit.
Or if you will, you can catch a bass with cheese and you can catch a bass with a worm. Cheese is not a worm.

Simplistic rhyme schemes work as a lyric because they are there as a mnemonic device - something to help the listener remember and connect. Complex rhyme schemes and narrative devices work in poetry because the point is (sometimes) to create parallell lines of thought and undercurrents of emotion. There are songs that do that too, but they were mostly written by Yes and ELP.

Freefalling is a great Petty tune. Freefalling is not a great poem.

 

[Folkie]

As always, it depends. But look at it this way. A poems job is sometimes different than a lyrics job. Great lyrics read as poetry frequently suck shit.
Or if you will, you can catch a bass with cheese and you can catch a bass with a worm. Cheese is not a worm.

Simplistic rhyme schemes work as a lyric because they are there as a mnemonic device - something to help the listener remember and connect. Complex rhyme schemes and narrative devices work in poetry because the point is (sometimes) to create parallell lines of thought and undercurrents of emotion. There are songs that do that too, but they were mostly written by Yes and ELP.

Freefalling is a great Petty tune. Freefalling is not a great poem.

I agree absolutely. My favorite example of lyrics that don't work as poetry is "Sha-na-na-na Sha-na-na-na-na Sha-boom Sha-na-na-na....."

Fun tune, no way is it poetry.

Alot of the "folkie" stuff I do has a repeating chorus (or refrain--I never know which to call it) whose redundancy would be incredibly boring in a poem, but works in a song. OTOH, Eleanor Rigby, for example, works either way (though I prefer it musically.)
Paul Simon's "America" has no rhyme scheme, but also works both as song and poem.

And of course, this is all leading up to the following conclusion:























Wormy cheese.





















Might work as a name for a band......