Do Lyrics Even Matter?

[Zed10R]

It all depends on who your audience is. Some people only care about the lyrics. Some people don't really care as long as the singer has what they cosider a good voice. Still other people only care about HOW the singer sings - dynamics and such. Tool for example. The varyations of this go on forever.

IMO, it is far more important HOW you sing the words than what the words are actually about. Some of the most emotionally charged vocals ever recorded (again...my opinion here) are nonsense words. It's just pure emotion, pure comminication coming out.

I don't think lyrical meaning is all that important as long as your emotion is coming across - and the words are TOO cheezy....

 

[Kasey]

in my opinion lyrics are extremely important, but that doesnt mean they always have to mean something. Usually i try and make my lyrics mean something. personally though, i am more concerned with imagery and trying to create an unusual emotion through words, even if those words dont necessarily make sense. If i have a song that means something and is 'good' but doesnt create that unusual emotion just by itself (read from paper) then its back to the drawing board for me. sometimes i just make lists of words and phrases that pop into my head and make a long list.

for example:
magnets
pulsing silence
pregnancy
howling
humble lion
engines
steel cities
wooden girl
looming
insects
kites


etc.etc.etc. you get the idea.

 

[HapiCmpur]

hapicampur, you seem like the type of person who makes art really dull.

hapycampur, i never said you make dull art.

You have to slice those two sentences pretty thin to suggest that they mean something different, dude. Thanks for making my point about lyrics for me.

 

[HapiCmpur]

She said it was beautiful and that I should not fuck it up when I write the words and sing it.

Ah, spousal support. Nothing like it, eh, JR? That's one of the reasons I don't perform new music or lyrics for friends or relatives until the work is almost complete.

But, to the point: I want to write in plain language this feeling of loss, but I must be abstract.

I know what you mean, and if I were you I'd approach it the same way. However, I don't think you must be abstract. No matter how direct you are with this, people are going to bend it to make sense according to their own experience. I don't have children, for instance, but I can be very moved by songs about the loss of child. I'm sure you've had lots of situtations in which you, too, were moved by a song that was clearly "about" something other than the interpretation you were applying.

If I can do this, I'll have success. But it is very hard.

Hey, if it was easy it wouldn't be art, right?

P.S.: Ironically, I must leave now to go to a friend's funeral. Later....

My sympathies, JR.

 

[HapiCmpur]

I don't think lyrical meaning is all that important as long as your emotion is coming across

I think you nailed it down right here, Zed. People like or dislike songs because of the emotions they inspire, not because of what the artist thinks his or her lyrics mean.

 

[DeathKnell]

Melody can be catchy for certain reasons.
Lyrics can be catchy for certain reasons.

It's completely circumstantial, although I do think it's a more refined skill to be able to write good lyrics.

Sometimes i've been listening to a song I found to be rather benign, then i hear one line of words and have to listen to the same spot 30 times over.. then fall in love with the song. I think you'll find a much deeper attachment to words than melody also, they can get a lot more personal.

 

[tryptophan]

hapicampur, i guess you're jealous that i write hit songs off the top of my head. sad.

 

[DefenderOfRock]

LOL!!! You are absolutely right. I'm all over the place. Actually, truth be told: the first half of the song above is about a German U-boat, found in the Atlantic with bones in it, then I felt compelled to make a 'trilogy' out of it.

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar... were you reading Shadow Divers?

 

[Autist]

I have no significant negative comments about these lyrics, except that "and the alien rage speaks to all of the reign of the time-space rock and roll" is kinda goofy, makes no sense at all and does not compliment the more poetic visualizations that some of the other lines invoke. It could be more refined, but I wouldn't abandon it.

Lyrics can be very important, but meanings can be as obscure as the artist deisires. Some of the lyrics to some of best Rock-N-Roll songs in history still can't be figured out by many people.

 

[Jack Russell]

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar... were you reading Shadow Divers?

Bingo! Yes, indeed!! You are very perceptive. (Shadow Divers, by Robert Kurson, c 2004 Random House)

An excellent book about the divers who located the wreck of U-571 and went though the long difficult task of identifying it, so that the families of the German sailors on the sub could get a sense of closure.

The first half of the lyrics are meant to be from the point of view of one of the dying crew as they knew they were going down and facing the end--would anyone ever know of their fate? Would the ship ('she') eventually be salvaged and raised to the surface?

 

[Jack Russell]

I have no significant negative comments about these lyrics, except that "and the alien rage speaks to all of the reign of the time-space rock and roll" is kinda goofy, makes no sense at all and does not compliment the more poetic visualizations that some of the other lines invoke. It could be more refined, but I wouldn't abandon it.

Lyrics can be very important, but meanings can be as obscure as the artist deisires. Some of the lyrics to some of best Rock-N-Roll songs in history still can't be figured out by many people.

Good point about that particular line. Definitely needs work. Thanks.

 

[HapiCmpur]

hapicampur, i guess you're jealous that i write hit songs off the top of my head.

Yes, I've been following your career for years. Keep those hits coming.

 

[Jack Russell]

hapicampur, i guess you're jealous that i write hit songs off the top of my head. sad.

I am definitley not worthy.

 

[Benreturns]

I can think of numerous songs where the lyrics are very basic but it doesnt matter one bit. Take 'I Want to Hold your Hand' by the Beatles - Oh Yeah I/ tell you something/I think you'll understand/when I say that something/I wanna hold your hand'... They are nice in a basic way, but not exactly what you might call too cultivated.

But who cares?!?! What a song. I dont doubt John and Pauls resolve on that tune for a minute. The song just rocks your balls off.

But having said that it can work both ways. If the Stones had not sung 'I cant get no Satisfaction' but instead - 'I cant get no sleep at night' (!? you get the idea...) then would it have had the same impact? The Who - My Generation, if that song had been the same tune/lyrics/musicianship but had been a love song then would a million teens latched onto it in 1965?

Then theres bob dylan etc... I suppose it really doesnt matter at the end of the day. Theres good songs and not so good songs.

 

[Folkie]

Hmmm. If someone listens to Symphonie Fantastique without knowing that Berlioz had a particular story in mind when he composed it, can we say that he or she missed the "meaning" of the piece? I certainly hope not.

I'm not implying that a listener will get no meaning without knowing the story behind it--indeed, some works have no story, they just are. On the other hand if one does know what story crazy Hector was working on it can add more to the feeling evoked by the piece. (BTW--BIG error on my original post--Berlioz--crazy Hector--was the creator of Symphonie Fantastique, not Prokofief. Thanks for catching that Hapi--don't know where my brain went.)

I don't think this has anything to do with how good a musician the listener is. If Igor Stravinsky listened to Symphonie Fantastique without having read Belioz's notes on it, he would have no way of even guessing the story on which it was based. Likewise, if you listened to Appalachian Spring without knowing its title, I'm sure even Aaron Copeland would forgive you for not being able to guess its subject matter. (Although he might be dismayed if you didn't enjoy it.)

I was trying to be humble. I agree with this. And with your general point that the listener will take their own meanings from a song, regardless of intent. That's basic communication theory, and music is assuredly communication. OTOH, if I as a writer, wish to communicate a certain feeling or event, it is incumbent on me to write in such a way that people have the potential to understand, provided my goal is to communicate to a listener other than myself.

 

[Folkie]

Bingo! Yes, indeed!! You are very perceptive. (Shadow Divers, by Robert Kurson, c 2004 Random House)

An excellent book about the divers who located the wreck of U-571 and went though the long difficult task of identifying it, so that the families of the German sailors on the sub could get a sense of closure.

The first half of the lyrics are meant to be from the point of view of one of the dying crew as they knew they were going down and facing the end--would anyone ever know of their fate? Would the ship ('she') eventually be salvaged and raised to the surface?

Hey JR--I re-read the lyrics (now that I have some clue what you're writing about). They make more sense--though they're still pretty abstract without the music.
But it sparked an idea. The alien space craft thing doesn't seem to fit the original theme. So, what if, instead of aliens, you put in something about how the dead sailor feels now that his ship has been retrieved? You still get that ethereal, other-worldly idea, only it now is attached to the story.

So you end up with

How the sailor feels about his ship sinking and his dying--will he ever be found? Will his family know? His poor ship! etc.
Then the recovery of the ship by the divers.
Then how he feels now that his ship has been found and returned from the deep.

Just a wild thought that popped into my head after you explained it more.
Feel free to ignore it completely or steal it unashamedly.

Good luck, my friend.

 

[Jack Russell]

Hey JR--I re-read the lyrics (now that I have some clue what you're writing about). They make more sense--though they're still pretty abstract without the music.
But it sparked an idea. The alien space craft thing doesn't seem to fit the original theme. So, what if, instead of aliens, you put in something about how the dead sailor feels now that his ship has been retrieved? You still get that ethereal, other-worldly idea, only it now is attached to the story.

So you end up with

How the sailor feels about his ship sinking and his dying--will he ever be found? Will his family know? His poor ship! etc.
Then the recovery of the ship by the divers.
Then how he feels now that his ship has been found and returned from the deep.

Just a wild thought that popped into my head after you explained it more.
Feel free to ignore it completely or steal it unashamedly.

Good luck, my friend.

Hey, man, that's a great idea! I was sitting here working on it just today, and i had the same thought. At first I considered taking the B-alien section and moving it en bloc to a completely different tune where it might fit better. But, on second thought the music (melody and chords) fits right where it is. The A section is a slow soul-like feel in A minor (actually based on a dissonant A minor 3-4 chord), to fit the mood of sinking and dying. The B section is uptempo (in D major) and is a good resolution (in fact the temp actually picks up a few clicks). So, I agree with your suggestion--just rewrite it so the resolution of the lyrics fits the original theme.

I'll work on it later this week and report back.

Thanks again Folkie!
-------------
and if I get it recorded, I'll send a demo to the author of the book for kicks.

 

[doral]

lyrics...I like to keep it simple...

I didn't score well on the NBC IQ test...
I think that qualifies me to be a good songwriter..
I don't write songs that make people try to hard to think...
I don't think i'm capable of that...
I keep it simple and write what's in my heart...
I like it when people cry to a song i've labored on for a while...
it lets me know that i've touched them in some special way...
Good luck with your songwriting... www.doldcountry.com

 

[walkperson]

really like that second verse.actually thought it was written with something very particular in mind.
Maybe the difference between a good song and a great song comes down to lyrics?

 

[Folkie]

Hey, man, that's a great idea! I was sitting here working on it just today, and i had the same thought. At first I considered taking the B-alien section and moving it en bloc to a completely different tune where it might fit better. But, on second thought the music (melody and chords) fits right where it is. The A section is a slow soul-like feel in A minor (actually based on a dissonant A minor 3-4 chord), to fit the mood of sinking and dying. The B section is uptempo (in D major) and is a good resolution (in fact the temp actually picks up a few clicks). So, I agree with your suggestion--just rewrite it so the resolution of the lyrics fits the original theme.

I'll work on it later this week and report back.

Thanks again Folkie!
-------------
and if I get it recorded, I'll send a demo to the author of the book for kicks.

BTW, for a really good song on love for one's ship and raising it up after it's been sunk, try "The Mary Ellen Carter" by the late, great Canadian singer/songwriter Stan Rogers. Here's a site:

http://www.chordie.com/chord.pere/g.../main/r/rogers_stan/the_mary_ellen_carter.crd

Not particularly abstract--but it might inspire you. There was a ship called the Marine Electric (a collier) that sunk off the Virginia coast a few years back. One of the crew who survived after several hours in stormy cold seas clinging to some debris, related that the only thing that kept him going was singing that song over and over. Talk about a tribute....Stan himself died in a plane fire. He got out okay, but went back in to save others. I imagine him singing the song himself as he did.