Difference in Studio Projects "C" and "B" series

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimmyT
  • Start date Start date
FWIW, in my business (self employed), it's been easier on my nerves
to have my past clients vouch for my services, let alone the issue of
whether or not I'm "putting down" my colleages.
In fairness to Alan, as with anyone who makes recording products of
any type who wish to be members here, it's only human to have strong
feelings about what they do-justified or not.
My sense of the situation is that at heart Alan's a recording enthusiast
just like the rest of us, and that's really the common denominator,
rather than he's trying to spam us (so let's stop using that term O.K.?).
The other factor is that his practical knowledge is on a pro basis,
and I know firsthand in my own line of work that makes it hard for me
to keep my mouth shut when people ask questions!

P.S. IMHO when I've sung through AKG C414 BULS, it sounded too bright
on my voice, like the C3000B I had. My "test" was at a dealer though,
so YOMV.
 
alanhyatt said:


The NT2 was and still is made by 797 Audio, same factory where mine are made. The NT2 is a two pattern mic, but it also sounds similar to the C1. The difference is we voice the C1 to be bigger in the low end, and more on the mid and top end. The NT2 is a fine sounding mic, but for the money, the C3 is a better value, and the mid and upper end is quite good.
Click to expand...


The NT2 is a LD mic. The C1 has a LD. Theyre both quasi modeled on neumann mics. Thats about where the similarity ends. The C1 does have a bigger bottom than the NT2 but that makes it hadrer to fit it in the mix at times. The midrange is wider and more open with less scoop but it doesnt have the magic presence that the NT2 has on the midrange bet 2k and 4k which gives it that NT2 sound.. Also I think their top ends are totally dif. The C1 sounds like it has a rise that starts at around 7k while the NT2 sounds like it starts higher up around 10k which makes the C1 sounds more aggressive than the NT2. Overall I would say the NT2 is a smoother sounding mic. The C1 is bigger but not as tasty. Dif enough to add to your locker as opposed to the C3 which is dif but not as dif as the NT2, the NT1000, the 4033 or the KSM series.
 
db51,
Alan didn't say the 414 was too bright..........he did say it had too much top end.....in his opinion. There can be a difference.
If you're going to be critical of someone then at least quote them correctly!!!

Gidge,
To partially quote you; "...hes a salesman and he's trying to sell his product.....

it is up to the Moderators to step in when a line is being crossed because that line is drawn by Dragon....we cant decide the line....."

If we believe what Alan has said in the past in regard to SP mics' designs and specs being of US origin and the effort that went into getting the Chinese to actually manufacture what SP wanted, not to mention the desire to produce a mic which is very competitive, both in price and performance, then he has every right to try and get his message across.........NOT because he is a salesman, BUT because he has put a shitload of work into making these mics a reality and is rightfully proud of them.

MODERATORS.........I said exactly the same thing in the "spam" thread in the Cave a few weeks ago, and was told we ain't got no moderators anymore.........doh!!!

Ultimately, as you say "the line is drawn by Dragon"..........NOT us. So if people don't like the way others post here then maybe they shouldn't read those posts......or better still, find a forum where everone meets their standards.

Peace........
:cool:
 
I think it's good that Alan says what he thinks, even if it sounds like he is trying to sell something*. :) At least as long as everyone knows who he is, and what he's up to. -So keep it coming Alan! But perhaps write signature so we rookies know who we are taking advice from.



*) "-Life is pain, Highness! Anyone who says differently is selling something", William Goldman, The Princess Bride
 
db51
Alan didn't say the 414 was too bright..........he did say it had too much top end.....in his opinion. There can be a difference.
Click to expand...

I quoted the important part correctly: "too", which was used in a pejorative way.
Doesn't matter if he's saying it's got too much top end or as I misquoted "too bright". My point is Alan is taking cheap shots at his competitors.


- Dan
 
dB51,

Sorry, but I don't agree with you about that. I think Alan is putting on his engineering hat and making a personal comment that has nothing to do with selling mics when he says the C1414 has "too much top end". I don't sell mics and he's right about the 414EBULS, at least to my ear. I passed on one brand new for $400, and I'd buy a C3 before I'd buy a 414, even if the 414 were the same price.
 
I'm not implying that Alan is lying about how the 414 sounds. I've never heard one, but if he says it has too much top end I'll believe him.

What bothers me is that you can always find something negative to say about a mic : even a U87 can be "too'" something, and Alan never fails to point it out, except for his own line of mics.

The bias is obvious every time Alan writes about his competitors products, which is why I think he shouldn't do that.

As someone pointed out in another thread, Alan never says anything good about other mics except when people point this out, then he'll throw in a favorable comment to pretend that he's fair game.

Anyway, I've had my say, I'll stop now

:)

- Dan
 
Wes and JimmyT,

I don't think the C-1 and the C-3 sound at all alike, at least not on the "Studio Sessions" CD that I got from PMI Audio. They are both good tools, and I learned a lot from listening to the sample CD (for instance, that a mic that renders a rather awful vocal track when "dry" -- in my opinion -- can still sound great in the mix). To my ears, the C-1 and the Neumann U87 have a similar character (not the same, just similar) that I simply don't like on dry voice.

When I listened to the promo disc, each of the three Studio Projects mics was a clear step up. The C-3 puts more space around the singer and renders (to my ears at least) a more natural sound. The T-3 improved on the C-3, but the gap between the C-1 and C-3 was larger than between the C-3 and the T-3 (which I hope helps to answer someone's question about how much better than very good can the mic be). I think someone here once said (if I may paraphrase) "use a regular condenser with a tube mic pre, and use a tube mic with a solid state pre." I disagree. I don't think a tube pre is going to make the C-3 sound as good as the T-3, for instance, or that the T-3 wouldn't sound good with a tubed preamp. Again, each had a distinctive sound, and the T-3 was a clear step up regardless of which pre was used, in my opinion.

I should add that the disc was also useful to me in auditioning the recorded differences among several preamps, most of which I was unfamiliar with. After posting my preferences, I then found out how much the ones I liked best cost! Yikes!

So it depends what you want to do. If you like the cuts through the mix sound of mics like the C-1, great. If you want something that will cut through the mix and still sound great on simpler, more acoustic recordings ("acoustic" is probably the wrong word, but you know what I mean), then $130 more for the C-3 is money well spent.

If you've got enough in the budget to bump up into the tube mic range (around $400 or so), then consider the Rode NTK or the GT AM62, which was covered in another thread today. I don't think you could go wrong with either one.

And at $700 the competition really heats up, with recent sale prices in that range on the AT4060 giving the similarly priced Studio Projects T-3 a run for its money. Unfortunately, my finances were such that I had to let go of my AT 4060 before I got my T-3 so I wasn't able to do a side by side comparison (rats!), but I can tell you from experience that they are both incredibly great mics!

Also at the $700 price-point, you've got the Shure KSM44, the AKG 414 BULS, and the Neumann TLM 103, all of which have been used to create some great recorded music, and all of which have fairly distinctive sonic signatures. (My wife and I are divided on the KSM32: I like it, but she thinks it's "too polite"; but we agree that the KSM44 is wonderful). I haven't had a chance to hear the AKG Solid Tube, but it's also in that price range.

Above that, I start dreaming about a forgotten uncle leaving me an inheritance that will enable me to buy a U47 and U67, maybe a nice Manley Gold Ref, and some stereo recording sets from Bruel & Kjaer. Of course I'll need a stable of good pres and effects units to go with them. Uncle, if you're reading this, you don't have to die to bestow your wealth on me.

Finally, Wes, I think the difficult choice is NOT between the C-1 and the NTK, but among the C-3 and the NTK and the GT AM62. I have NO idea how to sort out that group of bargains. Which will hold its value best over time? Which will serve your various recording needs best? Which just sounds better, richer, fuller, more magical to your ears? Personally, I'd take a chance on the GT, just because it's a $1500 mic that became a $1200 mic that became a $875 mic that is now being carried by some dealers for as little as $400. But is it really *better* than the other two, regardless of price? Maybe you'll be able to tell me!

(BTW, I just noticed that ZZounds.com has the GT AM line at these sale prices, which means free shipping as well.)

Best wishes,

Mark H.
 
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Dear Friends,

Please limit your comments to microphones and music, not forum members. We all have personal faults -- I could fill a page with mine -- but most of us don't appreciate having others point them out in a public forum. This isn't interpersonal rocket science, it's just the Golden Rule.

Those who think this person or that person is biased or has a hidden agenda or whatever need to realize that there are at least as many of us who completely disagree. It does not enhance your standing in this community to criticize ANYONE here, even if you believe yourself to be correct in your assessment.

I don't want to keep wasting bandwidth begging my friends and mentors to be civil to one another, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep your comments on topic and refrain from stating or implying ANYTHING about any other forum member's character or personality.

With the greatest of respect and appreciation for ALL of you,

Mark H.
 
Nobody likes a good capitalist...
C'mon...free speech, dudes! I support people like Alan. Like most salesmen I've known, he just wants to offer a competitive product for a more-than-competitive price.

Isaiah
 
Well I definitely think there's A LOT of Studio Projects/C1/C3/PMI Audio/Alan Hyatt/etc. going-on in this forum... JUST as much as there us to be of Oktavas and MXL; now, just not as much to make-way for the new, and it's gonna keep-on going with the B Series!

It seems people get up-set when the SAME thing is brought-up and talked about every other thread in this forum. But one fact remains to be seen... THIS is homerecording.com! There are only SO many mics you can commonly talk about here. BUT, with these prices for LD condensers JUST NOW (can you believe it?) starting to get to the price range the majority of the members here want to spend, there may be a broader-range to discuss on the horizon.

Now with Alan and all the e-mails I've received about him SPAMMING, I've yet to see what I consider SPAM. I've said PLENTY of times to take it up further with Dragon if you care to.

In regards to that "We Don't Have Moderators Anymore" or something like that thread in the Cave, I have not seen it, so I can't reply. I know there are plenty of you out there who would love to see a "real" moderator for legit reasons. I know I've hardly been participant for quite a long time now, but I promise I'm still here; whether any of you know it or not. It's just for how busy I am now, it's VERY hard to take the time to read these long threads and spend the time I do typing replies. So, if you feel a more "baby-sitter" type of moderator is needed here, I've encouraged you enough to take it up with Dragon if you'd like. I've mentioned how becoming the moderator happened and what it means to me and if that's not good enough, so be it.

As for the C1 and C3 differences, I've mentioned my experiences with them and which of the 2 I decided to spend my money on before. Read what Mark said below and he hit it RIGHT on the head! So, I chose the C3 as it's VERY rare to find a smooth, non-hyped high-end in THIS low price range!
 
RE,

The comment about not having moderators any more, probably stemmed from me pointing out that a moderator (in this case you), had in the past made a judgement on Alan's posts, which was similar to your current opinion. If you feel the need to see it, and I don't really advise it, the post was titled "What do you think of spam" or something similar.

For the record, (and I have mentioned this before), I was a moderator on a site where the moderators did effectively control unnecessary swearing, abuse, harassment of other community members, racial intolerance, etc., to maintain acceptable community standards. Not always an enviable task.

:cool:
 
I think it's important to remember that it is possible for Alan to wear two hats here; one, as defender/champion of his Studio Projects mic line, and two, as an engineer of long standing.

As a defender/champion of his Studio Projects mic line, he's going to put in recommendations for them, because he believes in them, and because it's profitable for him to do so.

Having the president of a company (that makes a low priced line of mics) on this forum is a good thing, because you can get answers that just aren't available in the written specs. On rec.audio.pro, we have representatives from Shure, Earthworks, Schoeps, Neumann, and Sennheiser participating in discussions.

It's a good thing, and we recognize there will always be a certain bias in their answers, but they are careful to label their opinions as personal opinions, as Alan does here. When Alan first came on here, he did slag some of the Marshall mics unfairly, I believed. And he was called on it, by me, and many others.

I don't see any of that kind of "salesmanship" from Alan these days - not at all. If he says something positive about his own mic line, it's because he believes in it, and that's to be expected.

But if he has something negative to say about another mic, it's usually coming from a position of an engineer (with a lot of recording experience) and I don't see it as trying to build up sales for his mics at the expense of others. Those posts I find informative, and many of his comments match my own experiences with these products.

Alan's reputation is too important to him to take cheap shots at other companies just to sell a couple of mics, and when I read something negative from him about another mic, I take it as coming from his personal experience as an engineer, rather than as a salesman trying to push his own line.

Maybe I'm giving Alan too much credit and cutting him too much slack, but I don't think so. In every private conversation with Alan, I found him to be a passionate person with strong beliefs, and an honest man. And a good engineer.

Keep in mind that I don't have ANY Studio Project mics, none, nada, zip, zilch, zero.
 
Having E-Mailed Alan personally on this subject please let a newbie interject. :)

Alan walks a fine line between a functional expert, and a marketing guru,so put yourself in his place.

You see a niche in the market for an inexpensive yet quality microphone that you can sell to the burgeoning home recording business. In order to take advantage of the market you must look at all of the competitors 'phones and improve on each of their shortcomings to make the best all-around mic you can. When asked (as he was in this thread) about the differences between his own products it is quite helpful to speak in terms relative to the microphones currently known on the market as a sort of benchmark for comparison. i.e. the comment about the "brightness" of the 414's. This comment does two very productive things for me, it tells me what Alan was thinking about when developing the mic, and gives me a reference point from which to compare, and ultimately agree or disagree. I have yet to personally hear or purchase any SP products, so a reference to known quanities allow insight to both the engineering imperative, and the final result of the project.

I don't know about the old Alan.... but as long as he labels his opinions as such, his expertise is greatly appreciated. If you don't like reading his posts, why oh why would you open a thread entitled "differences between ..." or "a question for Alan"?

Man, a psychologist would have a field day in here! :)

Tim
 
As a matter of fact the u87 is too something!!

Its too expensive. Thats why I have to reach for a C1. It hasnt disapointed anyone yet.

Does anyone who is critisizing Alan for compareing his C1 to competitors use the line of mics Alan is selling. or are your feelings hurt because you have bought one of those other mics that are in comparison flawed somewhat and you are just defending your mics reputation?

If in that case maybe you should try his mics first before you knock them, Its not to late to sell your present mic and get better ones.
 
You're all invited to my "what do you record" thread in the Cave.
I'm bringing the "cyber" beer and pizza, so it should be an enjoyable
thread for us all to get better aquainted with one another as we share
the common thread of loving music. So grab your designated driver
(mouse) and crash the party!
 
hells

I'd think people would feel good having someone from a mic manufacturer lurking around..maybe that way the 'common man' can get a word in on things and voice opinions, and maybe feel appreciated..so bring in the Neumann, Shure, AKG, etc people..if people bust on him for sharing his opinion, then everyone else deserves to get busted on too..I endorse products I like and use, and so does Alan..I'll recommend a Rode NT3 to someone because I personally like it, and find it very useful..and I don't even work for Rode..I dunno, i'd say if people keep whining, then you'll lose another face in the crowd that has valuable experience and a voice.

-Sal
 
Since we're gettin all warm and cozy and rubbing each other's n.......nevermind.

I don't get it. I don't know Alan or own his stuff but I know who he is as he identifies himself in every post he participates in. Can't get more open and honest than that. If he says something positive about his mics and you think it's crap.....kool....you know who he is and have the option of taking it with a grain of salt if you feel it necessary.

Harvey's post was well put and quite right on as usual....the man......the voice of reason. I also lurk on many other boards and NGs (like many of us) and have seen people from DBX, Mackie, Tascam, you name it, and I love that. We live in an age where we little nobody home guys can speak almost directly to people never before possible. I feel I have more respect for a company when they make themselves so available....it reflects to me a progreesive attitude towards bridging the gap in the customer, manufacturer relationship. When Alan offered those mics a ta dicount I thought, "NICE one, Alan, way to show a little gratitude and maybe even get a few people to see you in another light." But this was not the case. (I actually wish I'd gotten one while they were around:( ) I feel like Alan will get cyber spanked for anything at this point....I believe if he recommended an MXL, someone would either accuse him of admitting guilt or sucking up to everyone to sell more mics.:rolleyes:

I just want to close in saying that I dig guys like Alan and Harvey being here and I dig guys like Gidge and Slackmaster being here as well. I dig the fact that everyone is here to share whether I agree with/like them or not. If everyone felt the same, we'd have nothing to discuss.

Just so no one thinks I'm getting too touchy feely, I'm flashing my nuts at you right now.....yeah, that's right, YOU:eek:

(oooooh! cold chair!)



heylow
Rock Jedi/Indie Snob
www.heylowsoundsystem.net
 
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