Desperate for help with reducing noise and improving quality!!

[Nemesis]

*sigh* I'm going crazy. This might be a pretty long post but I will be forever grateful for any help.

Alright, it's been a full year now that I've been trying to record a basic metal demo. No matter what I do, the guitar tracks come out sounding awful, with hiss/noise ruining the track, and making any subtle guitar playing completely unnoticable. Here are the various methods I tried:

1) Poor man's method. I took my guitar amp, placed a PC mic in front of it, ran my usual guitar>distortion pedal>amp setup, recorded with CoolEdit Pro, and the tracks came out full of noise. I didn't expect much using a PC mic.

2) Ok, a little more advanced, I eBay a soundblaster live soundcard, get an adapter so I can have my guitar going into the line-in port. So now it became guitar>distortion pedal>cable adapter>soundcard, still recording with CoolEdit, still coming out noisy.

3) Alright, what do I expect for a $5 adapter. I take everyone's advice on one of my music forums and decide to get a quality effects processor, because a good amount of people have told me that basic distortion pedals cause too much noise to record with. Alright, I shell out $110 for a discontinued Johnson J-Station because everyone was raving about it. I get it, I can't really get the tones I want, but whatever, I figure I'll work with the tone bank later, first I want to record. Guess what, same result.

4) Ok, I want to record so badly, it's worth $100 or $200 more, so right before Christmas I get a Fostex MR-8 digital 8-track. I hook that up with my distortion pedal and guitar, and as the output I just have it running to my PC so I can hear what I'm playing. I record with the distortion pedal, sounds like crap. Alright, let's hook up the two expensive pieces, the Fostex and the J-station. The J-stations pathetic tones aside, noisy recordings again!

I've actually gone as far as to email some of my favorite bands who I know do their recording at home, and one of them told me I should really look into analog recording, because with heavy guitar distortion, this digital technology is too sensitive and it picks up all of that noise. Any truth to that? I don't feel like running around for an old analog recorder to get the same results again! Other people have told me to get a noise gate/suppressor pedal. I'd gladly go buy one, but the thing is, my distortion pedal and guitar sounds fine when I play through my amp, it isn't noisy, so it's the recording process that always makes things messy, technically not the pedal itself. So I could clean up the input signal all I want, but if the noise is a result of the recording process, it isn't going to matter. Someone even told me to turn of my PC monitor while I record. Now, I have heard of other electronics causing interference, but come on, these digital recorders are marketed as items to be intergrated with your home PC/studio, and now I'm expected to work with it while everything else in the room is shut off?

So I'm basically at the end of my rope. My few remaining options are 1) try an analog recorder, 2) try my luck with a noise gate which I don't think will help, or 3) look into a better distortion pedal or processor (like the POD or something) and see if those create less noise.

If anyone has any idea if either of those remaining solutions will work, or if you have a totally new route for me to take, any advice is greatly appreciated, it's pretty depressing to think that I'm about to give up on my biggest hobby because none of this stuff resolves the problem.

Update - Now someone has advised sticking with the digital recorder, but getting a quality mic and mic'ing my amp. Would THAT work?

 

[kylen]

...I get a Fostex MR-8 digital 8-track. I hook that up with my distortion pedal and guitar, and as the output I just have it running to my PC so I can hear what I'm playing.

This is more or less an end-to-end monitoring test...
Does that sound noisey when you monitor thru your PC speakers? How about if you select a clean sound just for testing?

I record with the distortion pedal, sounds like crap. Alright, let's hook up the two expensive pieces, the Fostex and the J-station... noisy recordings again!

This is your record/playback test? If you select a clean sound to record how is that. Are there clipping indicators and meters on the Fostex? You NEVER want to see red on a digital meter.

How about if you get some rca-to-phono adapters from radio shack and record a track from a cd into the Foxtex and listen thru headphones - is that noisey?

I think you can stop buying stuff - there seems to be a basic problem in your setup or recording/monitoring/playback process somewhere! Keep cool - you have a lot of power there already for what you're trying to do...

 

[Nemesis]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I've disconnected all the distortion stuff and just tried playing clean, and it sounds fine one note at a time, but once I start strumming chords, it gets just as muddy and dull as when I try to record with distortion. So yes, I have recorded with a clean signal, and it still comes out bad.

I thought maybe the problem was with my soundcard, and that would be why every time I listened to something through my PC it was sounding bad, so I even dug up an ancient pair of big headphones with the proper jack and plugged that directly into the Fostex, and it still sounded bad listening through phones.

And yes, I've paid careful attention to the meters on the Fostex to make sure I was within acceptable clip limits.

I suppose I could see what happens if I record a CD track into the Fostex.

 

[Toki987]

check windows control panel, sounds and audio, make sure on the recording section that you only have line in checked, uncheck "mic in" and "what you hear". That could be a culprit.

 

[kylen]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I've disconnected all the distortion stuff and just tried playing clean, and it sounds fine one note at a time, but once I start strumming chords, it gets just as muddy and dull as when I try to record with distortion. So yes, I have recorded with a clean signal, and it still comes out bad.

Hmmm - 'muddy and dull' remind me of what it sounds like if I connect a guitar directly to a stereo - in fact it's actually kind of warm.

I suppose I could see what happens if I record a CD track into the Fostex.

This is a good test, break the problem down one piece at a time, how does it sound in headphones - it should be OK otherwise take the Fostex back where you got it and see what's wrong.

Also on the PC side you say you have a soundblaster live - which jack are you connected to ? You probably already know that if you plug the equipment into the mic jack it's gonna sound bad - scratchy I think (not dull and muddy) so maybe that's not it. Sometimes it's hard to see which jack is which though so that's why I was asking - counting down from the top (or bottom) of the card which jack is it ? 1st 2nd 3rd, etc...

 

[riantide]

Ok, I know a lot of people on this BBS record direct guitars to great effect, and most of them have better gear and know a hell of a lot more than I do.

That being said, I can't stand it. Borrow a good amp from a friend, buy an SM57, and get a hold of a good speaker cabinet (unless you were able to get a combo). The sound of speakers moving air is unlike anything else in the world and I'm sure if you mess around with mic positions you'll end up loving it. That's not really a solution to your problem, but I think you'd get a lot closer to the records you like the sound of doing it the old-fashioned way.

 

[Toki987]

since you got issues using the computere as well as the MR8 I would presume that it`s the guitar itself or the pedal. One or the other possibly needs to be checked for problems, as well your cords.

 

[Toki987]

2) Ok, a little more advanced, I eBay a soundblaster live soundcard, get an adapter so I can have my guitar going into the line-in port. So now it became guitar>distortion pedal>cable adapter>soundcard, still recording with CoolEdit, still coming out noisy.


4) Ok, I want to record so badly, it's worth $100 or $200 more, so right before Christmas I get a Fostex MR-8 digital 8-track. I hook that up with my distortion pedal and guitar, and as the output I just have it running to my PC so I can hear what I'm playing. I record with the distortion pedal, sounds like crap. Alright, let's hook up the two expensive pieces, the Fostex and the J-station. The J-stations pathetic tones aside, noisy recordings again!



Ok, these parts reveal a little more. Single coil pickups? Are you using a cheap long guitar cord and working near the computer or another ac source with it? Is the signal into the inputs over 0 db?

 

[Fendophile]

Muddiness in a signal that has not been recorded at too high of a volume can often be the result of an impedance mismatch. This is the area that I would investigate first. It may be a simple matter of switching which output feeds which input.

The variations from accepted standards that some electronics manufacturers employ can also be troublesome. Some soundcards may not be accurately spec'd on input impedance. Ditto some outputs from other devices. Note that some manufacturers give a disclaimer of sorts by saying that something is an emulated this or that output. This does not mean that they will not work properly, but that with some equipment, the variation from nominal may be troublesome.

Frankly, trying to record a guitar that is highly distorted will lead to this type of problem anyway. You have lots of high gain stages cascaded, each amplifying whatever noise was present in the original signal.

Some software plug-ins for music recording host programs offer a combination compressor/gate feature. That is, you set the gate level at a point that will pass the louder guitar signal and which will block the lower level noise signal. This assumes that the noise is lower in volume than the main signal. If not, you will have to find the noisy culprit in your guitar/amp chain and reduce that noise first of all. Oh, and when the gate is open, it passes all of the signal, not just the louder guitar, but it can offer some improvement in some cases.

Removing any obvious causes of radiated EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) in the guitar/amp environment is an absolute necessity. Such radiators are computer monitors, computers, fluorescent lights, light dimmer circuits, etc. Even consumer electronics with microprocessors, such as a microwave oven, can sometimes pollute the environment with their EMI emissions. Unplugging them one at a time can be a help quite often in finding the source of the offending radiation.

Tube amps, because of their higher operating voltages, are famous for creating EMI.

Solid-state amps operate at lower voltages and do not radiate as freely as tube amps. However, since most solid-state amps utilize microprocessor based effects circuitry, they can create a ticking noise that will drive you nuts. In fact, so will a digital watch when close to your pickups or strings.

Good luck and let us know how you fare. Hang in there. You'll nail it.

 

[kylen]

Good luck and let us know how you fare. Hang in there. You'll nail it.

I think in the beginning you have to sling a bloody chicken around the room, face south and chant various DSP algorithms before the digital gods allow you to record successfully...mixing gets worse, and don't even bring up mastering...

 

[scrubs]

Update - Now someone has advised sticking with the digital recorder, but getting a quality mic and mic'ing my amp. Would THAT work?

While I can't guarantee that this will completely eliminate noise, you will almost always get a better tone from a microphone on an amp rather than recording direct. If you are able to get a good sound out of your amplifier, why are you wasting all of this time and money trying to do it a different way? Studios have been sticking Shure SM57s up to amp speakers for decades with excellent results. That mic, or another similar one (with careful placement) should work better for you than what you are getting now. Best of luck.

 

[scrubs]

Oh, and it sounds like you are going into a little 1/8" input on your soundcard, right? You may be getting electrical hum in addition to "noise" from the distortion. This could be helped by getting a direct box and a soundcard with balanced 1/4" TRS or XLR inputs. Happy recording.

 

[smtcharlie]

The advice above is good, you should have plenty to lay down some stuff that sounds decent. I used to have a Boss BR-8 which should act roughly similar to your fostex machine. I used to record direct all the time: guitar -> distortion pedal -> Boss machine. Sounded just fine. In fact, I used to have much better luck getting dirty or heavy distortion sounds than clean sounds.

I just thought that I'd hit a point above again because it seems important. Get the most simple set-up that you can to test first. Pug in a CD player and headphones into your fostex and see how that sounds. Then add. Getting audio into computers is just as much of an art form as a science, cut that out of your set-up for the time being and add it later once you've got a handle on what it is that you don't like (my guess is that there's something funny going on between the Fostex to the computer that's screwing up the sound).

And once you have a rockin' sound, my favorite thing to do was to record a heavy riff, then double that same riff again (record exactly the same thing again). Pan one all the way left and one all the way right. Ah, there's nothing more fun to record, if you ask me...

(music on my site below wil give no confidence on that last statement....)

smtcharlie

 

[patlang12]

I have an mr8 as well. I use an sm57 to record my amp. I get a good sound. I just got come nice recording headphones and when I listened to the recording it had a lot of hiss on it. The fostex mr8 is known to have a noisy headphone jack so I put it in the computer using the usb, burned it to a cd and listened. It still had a lot of hiss, so it maybe because of the recorder. I think I am going to try to record a cd to the mr8 and then burn it to the cd like people suggested. This may show the problem. Anybody else have problems with the mr8 being very noisy?

 

[Nemesis]

Wow, I didn't expect all the replies, sorry for falling behind!

Well, I suppose for now, first thing I'll do is record a CD track with the Fostex so I at least know whether or not I'm keeping this 8track.

Someone else brought up my guitar pick-ups, I have a Jackson KVX10 with the Seymour Duncans that came stock, so no, not single coil.

For those of you who brought up my soundcard, yeah I'm going into the Line In port (not the Mic) and yes I'm using a 1/8" jack.

I'm just getting more confused, haha, so many things to try now.

So first, I'll do a text on this Fostex. If it records the CD track nice and cleanly, then I suppose I will keep it and see what happens if I mic an amp instead of plug directly in. In the event that the Fostex fails the CD track test, I might look into a better soundcard with the 1/4" plugs and all that stuff, a sound card meant for recording.

I really appreciate the replies, thanks for the support.

Edit- The other thing I'm going to test is the built-in Mic on the Fostex. Obviously it will be a piece of garbage Mic but I just want to see how the results turn out if I try it that way.

 

[RedStone]

I used to get a ton of hiss from my guitar as well. I found out that a) I was recording at much too high a volume and my sound card (a sound blaster Live) was peaking badly, and b) in my case, the connection from my guitar was bad.

Try using the mic input instead of line, and turn the recording volume way down (control panal --> sound and volume --> options --> properties --> 'adjust volume for' recording)

if your guitar sounds fine on it's own without plugging it in to the computer, I would bet dollars to donuts that it's either your sound card, adapters or the level you are recording at.

I'd also try using another program to record like a sound forge or something ... just to see if it's a software issue related to cool edit

 

[Halion]

There's some basic stuff that may not seem logical at first, but might just be the problem:

- When you run a distorted signal through the speaker of your guitar amp, the speaker has a very, VERY hard time dealing with that signal. However, that is the very charm of the speaker. Alot of sound simply gets filtered away because the speaker can't handle those frequencies, or signals that fast etc. Knowing that, and comparing that to the speakers connected to your computer/fostex, that itself might be the problem. Somehow, higher frequencies could still be picked up and may have become very audible through your monitoring speakers, even though you may not hear them much at all coming from your amp.
- A general rule for recording highly distorted guitar: less gain, more mids. That's not taste, that's a simple fact.
- Imagin your ear directly in front of the speaker (don't do this though, you could wreck your ears!). Low and mid frequencies cary further and are less directional as high frequencies. If you are standing say, 1 meter from your amp, at and angle of 45 degrees or something, you are hearing something very different from what a mic right up the speaker is hearing. Now you're getting into mic choice and more importantly placement. That's something to read an entire book about, so I won't go there.

Just realize that all these things can be the bottleneck. Those, and bad cables, impendance missmatch, phase problems, magnetic interferance, soundcard inputs, A/D converters, room ambience etc. There's so much to think about, you ain't gettin' there with a sound blaster and a nice guitar pick, sorry ;-)