DAV Preamp samples.

  • Thread starter Thread starter BigRay
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I think its great that you posted samples Ray, but I also think that Chess is right on the money here. A comparison can only be made when there is something to compare it to. Beyond that, there are also many other reasons why comparison's just aren't all that valuable. Even adding the HV3 samples does not create an equal playing field for comparisons. How do we know where the mic placement was? What other factors were involved in each specific sample? I don't think Chess was trying to say that the test is purposely biased or anything, just that there is no definitive value of the samples as far as being able to judge the DAV. How do we know that some other preamp may not have sounded much better in this circumsatnce without at least hearing one or two others? This is exactly why I choose to not utilize little comparisons when buying equipment. Instead I choose to get advice from people I trust and respect and compbine that with my own research. I don't buy the DAV "hype". I have no doubt in my mind that it is a great preamp, and from what I can tell, a great bargain as well. However, my experience in my circle of peers also tells me that it is not the be all end all like you say it is. The people I know that own one like it, use it, but it has certainly not replaced all of their other equipment like it has for you. But that is all OK. We all have different methods, likes, and dislikes.

As far as not caring, I think that ytour posts show that you care a great deal. This is not necessarily a bad thing, passion is good. However, maybe you shouldn't try to pretend like it isn't there. Within 30 minutes you posted three different posts concerning Chessrock's statements. This tells me that you really do care, and care alot. I know we have not seen eye to eye on things. I definately disagree when people say that one thing and only one thing is the best, flat out. I am not afraid to speak my mind either. I just think the audio industry is built on flexibility and needs to be. In this specific instance, I think Chessrock was right on, and that his post was completely inline, and even a valuable contribution. I am sure that you would take issue if Chessrock was touting something different and posted samples and said that his preamp was better than your favorite, or mic, or converter, or whatever, but did not post any useful means of comparison. I also think that in that event it would be completely in line and in the spirit of things to chime in:)
 
Not to beat a dead horse too badly here :D ... but Ray, I'll give you an analogy to all this.

Let's say that I was a big proponent of "I can't believe it's not butter." And I thought this stuff was just worlds better than any other brand of margarine or butter substitute, hands-down.

So to lend credence to this claim, I bake up a wicked batch of my chocolate chip cookies, utilizing the "I can't believe it's not butter" within the recipe. I then procede to hand these cookies out to friends and family, explaining to them that these are "examples" of the buttery spread I am so enamored with.

Let's say my brother tries the cookies, loves them, and is thus convinced that I am accurate with my assesment. At the same time, my buddy's girlfriend tries the cookies and thinks they suck. She is now convinced that "I can't believe it's not butter spread" is the worst buttery spread on the market.

Now, let's assume that, in order to form a basis of comparison, I call my cousin up in California, who makes some really kickass oatmeal cookies ... and I convince her to make up her next batch of cookies using her favorite margarine, Imperial. Now, as a basis of comparison, I send Big Ray 3 or 4 of my cousin's oatmeal cookies with the Imperial margarine ... and another bag of my chocolate chip using the ICBINB. Now you can clearly see for yourself which one uses the superior butter spread.

Do you see anything wrong with my methodology on any of this, Ray?
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xstatic said:
etc etc
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What you are missing, as Chess did..is that I posted the samples because someone asked me to. It was not geared as a be-all , end all, or even a comparison, PERIOD. So Chess was bitching about something that wasnt even an issue. Butting into a topic when there was nothing to discuss. as for "being right on the money"...you have completely missed the point. If I had posted the samples with the intent of doing a square-off with other mic preamps or to be even remotely scientific , that is one thing..but it was no such thing. Surely you two arent so dense as to not grasp what I am explaining here??

xstatic said:
etc redux
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Ive "heard" many things about preamps and mics, but it would be damn silly to comment unless I owned them. So until you own one,and use it , your comments about it mean nothing to me, and to potential users, the comments probably mean even less. For all I know(or they) your "circle of peers" could be corky, Walters, and FordVan. as for me, I will continue to laud the preamp until such time comes that the next thing blows me away. As an adopter of the products, I am completely qualified to comment..but you can bet your ass that I wont say a damn thing about M-audio dmp3, meyer speakers, or Martech pres because I dont know dick about them. making comments based on 2nd or 3rd hand info with no experience of my own would be useless. To us classical guys, they ARE that good. I am on the opposite end of the spectrum from the studio/rock "secular" music folks, so I dont know what the impact of the company has been in that realm. From what ive seen in the classical realm though..the "hype" has all been true.

as for people making claims about this gear or that...that is all fine and good. I buy what I want to buy. I dont listen to anyone's suggestions here, nor do I even look. Most of the items I go for by default are pretty expensive(due to the nature of my work)... Most of the stuff suggested here I have no experience with. Ive never used an Maudio product or a rode mic. ive never used a apex... I do listen to a couple of peoples suggestions, like Sodelsolray or Albee, because their work is similar to what I do, but by and large I pay absolutely no attention to gear posts here. None of it applies to me..so if you or chess wanted to espouse the merits of this or that, go ahead.


but anyway...none of this matters. the only thing that matters is that Chess misconstrued my intent here....take away that fact, and none of this would be happening. For future reference, if I intend to do a comparison of sorts, you can bet your ass that it will be comprehensive. Just dont read into things. If I want to say something, I will....all that was was me answering a request to post a sample or two.. Chess comments were not relevant, nor were yours. You were all barking up the wrong tree.
 
chessrock said:
Not to beat a dead horse too badly here :D ... but Ray, I'll give you an analogy to all this.
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Again, Chess..you are reading way too much into my intent. someone asked me to post clips. I did. End of story. It was not meant to be a comprehensive series of tests. It wasnt meant to bolster any claims about the pre, it wasnt meant to discredit any other gear...it was simply me answering a request. If I had intended to discredit other gear or do a comparison of sorts, you better believe that I would post a very exacting series of tests with numerous gear pieces, with a text file explaining each and every step along the way. I am not a spring chicken, and you are not either, so please, in the future, dont make any assumptions. If want to state something, I will state it. If I say"this is A" dont expect there to be a B or a C..

Are people so stupid here that they take one or two samples as gospel??I am assuming that they arent. if they are, they deserve whatever they get stuck with.

anyway, it is what it is. SAMPLES, and SAMPLES ALONE.. I think I have made that clear. If not, the hell with it. Off to bed.
 
Since when does posting clips have to be a comparison? I don't recall ANYWHERE being mentioned that this was an A/B thread. And if it is NOT an A/B thread, then the only way to make Chess et al happy here would be to not use convertors, cable, a mic, or Ray. How silly is that?????

I for one am always happy to hear what can be done with a given piece of gear, even if that piece of gear wasn't the determining factor in the given sound.
 
chessrock said:
The only thing I'm puzzled with is how you can call it a "preamp sample."

It's not a preamp sample. It's a ray sample. It's a ray's room sample. It's a ray's converter sample. It's a Schoeps /Geoffel sample. It's a sample of Ray's guitar, Ray's amp, Ray's pickups and the strings he uses (sorry, I didn't hear what he actually played -- the files wouldn't even open).

It's also a Ray's audio eningeering skills sample. It's a "whatever cables Ray is using" sample.

Yea, and based on the gear used and the file size...it's probably one of the best samples posted to use for info. Chess dude, why so harsh on someone trying to be helpful to others. I'd say downloading a good recording is very helpful in making a decision on gear that you cant otherwise evaluate. If you like the sound you hear, then you've got a list of gear to look for. One thing I know, if a downloaded file sounds good, the actual gear with similar talent will sound even better. I'd be more concerned about making a purchase decision by reading reviews, salesman suggestions, or listening to files of lesser quality.
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fwiw, the files are FLAC files, (compressed, but fully lossless, unlike MP3)

http://www.foobar2000.org/ (this player will play them--great player anyway, customizable, VERY few system resources used..)
 
Ray, your own logic here does not seem to applicable either. Nowhere does it say in your original post that you were asked to post samples. Noone is saying that your opinion is not valid, noone is saying that the DAV preamps aren't great either. Chessrock's post made absolute sense to me, and seemed inline for the people who do not understand what is going on, especially since you never stated it. I agree with both of you to a great degree.

Now, as for you taking everything so personally, why? For someone who does not care, you sure seem to personalize everything that everyone says that does not agree with what you tend to. Why is that? Chessorck has every right to post in this thread as you do to make it. His initial post was civil and to the point, not to mention correct. Somehow you turned this into some sort of personal battle. I know we have not always agreed on things, yet somehow I have managed to be reasonable about it all and actually make a point to publicly agree with you when we do happen to see things the same way. You however always seem to have some sort of little snide comment about everything. Do you feel like a better person when you try and belittle people?

End result, Chessrock may have misinterpreted the original post. With all of the other "comparison" threads on this forum, I can easily see how that would have happened. Then again, it seems to me like you have also misinterpreted his post as well. Would it not have been far easier and much more civil to calmly state what your intentions were rather than making everything so personal?
 
xstatic said:
Ray, your own logic here does not seem to applicable either. Nowhere does it say in your original post that you were asked to post samples. Noone is saying that your opinion is not valid, noone is saying that the DAV preamps aren't great either. Chessrock's post made absolute sense to me, and seemed inline for the people who do not understand what is going on, especially since you never stated it. I agree with both of you to a great degree.

Now, as for you taking everything so personally, why? For someone who does not care, you sure seem to personalize everything that everyone says that does not agree with what you tend to. Why is that? Chessorck has every right to post in this thread as you do to make it. His initial post was civil and to the point, not to mention correct. Somehow you turned this into some sort of personal battle. I know we have not always agreed on things, yet somehow I have managed to be reasonable about it all and actually make a point to publicly agree with you when we do happen to see things the same way. You however always seem to have some sort of little snide comment about everything. Do you feel like a better person when you try and belittle people?

End result, Chessrock may have misinterpreted the original post. With all of the other "comparison" threads on this forum, I can easily see how that would have happened. Then again, it seems to me like you have also misinterpreted his post as well. Would it not have been far easier and much more civil to calmly state what your intentions were rather than making everything so personal?
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Ahh, the voice of reason!
 
I would love it if we had a mic/pre samples forum, and a lot of participation. The only way these samples have much value is when there's enough data points to do some averaging.
I'm taking no sides on the argument here, except to say that if you post a response to a PM where the public can view and hear it, then your intent is no longer private, it's public. At the same time, if you don't like the program, change the channel. We can argue all day the value of samples, but I personally like them. I like them a lot more though, when a baseline is added, like a mackie pre for instance, or whatever you have that is pretty well known. Lastly, caveat emptor applies as always, but there is a slight danger that a newb will hear a sample like this and be pursuaded to spend his or her entire gear budget on a pre because they think it was THE reason that clip sounded great. Is that anyone's problem but theirs? No, but it's something to keep in mind.
 
I don't see the value in a Mackie "baseline", or any other cheapo preamp baseline. Even between different models and generations of Mackie gear there are differences in sound.

All I want to hear is the best someone can do with their gear. What helps me, and what is absolutely essential, is to know what gear is being used for the entire signal path. What are the mics, what are the converters, etc.

Knowing the signal path and knowing the circumstances of the recording is far more valuable to me than A/B'ing against a Mackie preamp. Like what was the size of the hall, the studio room, whatever. The Mackie preamp is not a standard reference or baseline in a scientific sense, and is practically useless as a help in making judgements in my opinion.

Just let me hear the gear, and then I'll take it from there. :cool:
 
That makes sense, SonicAlbert.

Then why not just post it in the MP3 clinic, then, and list off the gear used on it? Why the need to post it in the Rack forum and call it a "preamp sample?"

It would seem to make more sense in that context. Just curious.
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This is freakin hilarious. Big Ray has been in the recording game for about a year and a half, he’s a fucking crock.

18 months ago he was over on the tapers section forum as ray76 asking what cheap mic to plug into his Nomad JB3 and asking what a preamp does. It seems he spent a lot on fancy gear since then and now he talks like he’s Rudy Van freakin Gelder. Back then Big Ray wasn’t even sure what a mic pre did.

He has become the master of absorbing what other people (who know what they’re talking about) say and reciting it as if he knows what he’s talking about (as with the DAv BG-1). It just goes to show, you can be whoever you want to be on the internet as long as you can talk a good game.

Here’s one of his posts from November 2004:

I am a newbie, tech-retarded, and have a nomad jb3..want to record voice lessons
I need to know EXACTLY what I need to get in addition to this JB3(which I have heard many great things about...got it for 149) to get a decent quality recording of my lessons...a good decent price microphone(I aint tapin no concerts yet) what kind exactly and from where do I get it, what exactly I need in addition to the microphone and the JB3, and how exactly do I start the process of recording , and after that how do I transfer to computer, what is firewire and where do i get it, and how do I use it with this machine??Please babysit me, I know you did a big spiel, brian, but too complicated for my not technical brain...too many choices...please give me a good setup to record just a voice and piano and my voice teacher talking.....and im not rich, so not too pricey....I really really appreciate it.....Once again, keep it simple when explaining...I am a tech idiot(I have been using a dictophone, but got tired of the bad quality..)Oh and what programs can I play my lessons with../??please be thorough.....and SIMPLE>>>>>Ray
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And not forgetting this one seeing as we’re talking mic pres and all:

So let me get this right. The mic alone does not get loud enough by itself when I am going to the line in jack so I need a preamp.
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This is all pretty funny for those of us reading his posts back then. I’ll give credit where it’s due though, he is a master bullshitter. :D

His username was ray76, unfortunately you have to register at taperssection to read posts but it’s all there.

http://taperssection.com
 
:D :D :D :D

you gonna take that Ray Ray? :D :D :D :D

........i'm sorry, this is funny shit. :D :D :D :D
 
chessrock said:
That makes sense, SonicAlbert.

Then why not just post it in the MP3 clinic, then, and list off the gear used on it? Why the need to post it in the Rack forum and call it a "preamp sample?"

It would seem to make more sense in that context. Just curious.
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well, for starters, it wasnt an Mp3. 2nd..I saw no other place to post where it would "fit in". It seemed to make sense to me to post preamp samples in the preamp forum. Someone asked for clips, I responded. Nothing more ,nothing less. The attempt to turn this from what it is into something entirely different is mind boggling. All salient points have been noted(even from Chessrock, his MO and Character nuances aside. ;) ) There WILL be a comparison coming ,(in the middle of it now) that incorporates a lot of the "esoteric" preamps that are mentioned around various forums, as well as several Microphones. Everything will be level-matched, annotated, and available on an external server(to avoid download hassles). Unfortunately, I dont have a lot of the gear mentioned on this forum. If someone wants to send something, I will gladly put it in the loop.
 
BigRay said:
well, for starters, it wasnt an Mp3. 2nd..I saw no other place to post where it would "fit in". It seemed to make sense to me to post preamp samples in the preamp forum. Someone asked for clips, I responded. Nothing more ,nothing less. The attempt to turn this from what it is into something entirely different is mind boggling. All salient points have been noted(even from Chessrock, his MO and Character nuances aside. ;) ) There WILL be a comparison coming ,(in the middle of it now) that incorporates a lot of the "esoteric" preamps that are mentioned around various forums, as well as several Microphones. Everything will be level-matched, annotated, and available on an external server(to avoid download hassles). Unfortunately, I dont have a lot of the gear mentioned on this forum. If someone wants to send something, I will gladly put it in the loop.
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I've got a behringer mixer you can borrow........uhh, umm.......have. :D
 
TravisinFlorida said:
I've got a behringer mixer you can borrow........uhh, umm.......have. :D
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My own personal preferences aside, I would be more than happy to run some of the gear that is commonly mentioned here through the paces and include the results. I think it would be a very good thing. There isnt really a "budget" version of something like the listening sessions, so I think it would serve a very very good purpose. I have access to some very beautiful acoustic spaces, and would love to do this for the benefit of whoever would be interested. Maybe it would cut down on some repeated questions(maybe not!) and with the proper documentation could be sort of a substitute(well, not really, but it would be revealing) for those that could not get their hands on gear to try out for whatever reason..
 
My first impression is that "ray76" has a completely different writing style than BigRay. Maybe it is him, but changing writing style is a lot harder than changing online names.

As far as mp3's, that's another thing I find pretty useless when it comes to comparisons of gear. It always amazes me when people have a question about gear or want an opinion and then they post an mp3. The sound quality on an mp3 is very often garbage.

What I want to hear is a good audio sample at 16/44.1. I just don't think anything less is helpful when it comes to listening for really fine detail. Frequency ranges get a bit skewed on mp3's.
 
SonicAlbert said:
My first impression is that "ray76" has a completely different writing style than BigRay. Maybe it is him, but changing writing style is a lot harder than changing online names.

As far as mp3's, that's another thing I find pretty useless when it comes to comparisons of gear. It always amazes me when people have a question about gear or want an opinion and then they post an mp3. The sound quality on an mp3 is very often garbage.

What I want to hear is a good audio sample at 16/44.1. I just don't think anything less is helpful when it comes to listening for really fine detail. Frequency ranges get a bit skewed on mp3's.
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Here's how you find out............HEY RAY! IS IT YOU?! RAY RAY! YOU RAY76?!

I agree about mp3's. More often than not, they suck. To tell you the truth though, I can't really hear a difference in hi bit rate mp3's (192 and up) and wav's. I've sat and listened to both, converted using different codecs. If you were to put up a wav and hi bit rate mp3 of the same piece of music, I would'nt be able to tell the difference.
 
I don't think you have to do much research to figure out that Ray is basically a fraud of some sorts. I have no idea what his motivations are, but yea, the guy's been full of shit from day 1.

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