Cymbal Wash in my Overheads

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ZionBound

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Ok I'm pretty sure that this forum just hates new people but it works out great because I feed off hate. Maybe after sifting through all the random negative comments that everyone makes I may find some actual information from someone who's "been there and done that".:drunk: My problem is not isolated to just this issue but this will be the only one of my problems we will be discussing today. I am getting alot of cymbal wash in my overheads and I wondered if someone could look at the few pics I've posted and let me know what you think about my overhead mic placement. Should I move them further over the kit or back them away into the room. It's a new room and I am having a heck of a time with my kit being in the corner. Reflections are killing me, (please don't tell me to treat the room because I have some rockwool and loads of other stuff on the way) however, I have made some pretty killer recordings in a lesser environment. Any thoughts constructive or not would be appreciated. (I can't believe I just left that door open. . . have fun greg):cool:
 
No picture, but try repositioning your overheads so they're either higher up or aimed more toward the drums themselves.
 
Thanks Naka

That video is great. In fact, it's making me think that the more mics the worse your problem. I'll post a good pic of what I'm working with and see if that makes more sense.
 
Different mic positioning.

Different playing style.

Different cymbals.

Different room / positioning within room.

Use a little bit of our good friend, duct tape (or that "moon gel" stuff)...
 
mattr said:
Different mic positioning.

Different playing style.

Different cymbals.

Different room / positioning within room.

Use a little bit of our good friend, duct tape (or that "moon gel" stuff)...
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^^This.

Your cymbals appear to be very close to the close mics on the toms so they probably have a lot of cymbals in them too, and that can cause trouble with the amount of cymbal your overheads. Put them up a little higher, and don't hit them so hard (you're not supposed to be bashing away at them, like you would with drums. That could be another problem too: not hitting the drums hard enough to balance out the wash of cymbals).

Also, the B8's aren't the best, they have a lot annoying overtones and just generally aren't too pleasant to listen to. A better alternative would be Sabian XS20's if you're on a budget. They don't have grooves in them, but they actually sound pretty good. Of course if you're really going for high quality, just buy the cymbals you want to end up with in the long run. For me it's good ol' Zildjian Avedis. Works for absolutely everything.

Duct tape actually leaves a lot of residue when you remove it, so use it carefully and wisely.

Perhaps if you'd post a recording of yours I'd be able to give some more specific advice.
 
ZionBound said:
it's making me think that the more mics the worse your problem. .
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Stop thinking that because it's not true. If you can get by with one or two mics on a kit, do it. But if you play loud music with balls, you're gonna wanna spot mic the kit for better presence.

mattr addressed the issues you need to look at.
 
ZionBound said:
I am getting alot of cymbal wash in my overheads. Should I move them further over the kit or back them away into the room. Any thoughts constructive or not would be appreciated.
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Try it and see. I've found that sometimes, putting the overheads below the level of the cymbals and pointing slightly downwards towards snare and toms has helped. It's not a foolproof 100% everytime solution, but there have been times when it's made a difference.
ZionBound said:
In fact, it's making me think that the more mics the worse your problem.
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I've read this alot but for some reason, I've never found this happen. On the contrary, using sometimes up to 9 mics has given me more scope and besides, you don't have to use every recorded track.
 
Lots of good advice above. Here's what works for me when I have an inexperienced drummer who bashes instead of plays:

Spaced pair overheads, located behind the drummer (sometimes called underheads). Each mic is about 36" off the floor, the two mics are about 7 feet apart. Set them up so that the distance to the middle of the snare is the same. I also put some pillows mounted on music stands between the overheads and the ride & crash. Cymbal sound (I think) mostly radiates upward and downward, so this approach minimizes the direct path and emphasizes the indirect (reflective) sound. Not necessarily a good thing in terms of fidelity, and probably increases the amount of flamming, but hey...

Direct mic everything else. Gate the snare, and either gate or edit the toms.

I always try to educate the drummer first, get him to understand dynamics, etc. but at some point I give up and fix it in the mix.
 
Every situation, room and drummer will be different, so you have to be willing to try different things and really play with your levels and EQ. Use your ears.

Most of the time I prefer a pair of 10 db padded matched SDC's in a coincident pair about 18" above the center of my kit above the rack toms and highest cymbals. I get a very fair picture of most of my kit with this and then only use a kick mic and a small dynamic on my snare.

But if I'm set up somewhere else and it sounds like crap, I change things until it sounds right.
Usually I'll have to add another mic or two to the floor toms and maybe to the hats.
 
Thanks a mil to everyone. My playing style is very soft because typically I'm playing alot of jazz and groove stuff. Not a real smasher. I do think, however, that the cymbals themselves would be a good starting point. The package I got came at a ridiculous price because a couple friends at a local music store "marked down" their pack so I could get G.C. to beat it. Not very ethical I know.:spank:

The cymbals are right over the toms because I'm not a smasher. I like everything tight and close so I can get to it fast and with a light tap. That being said, the tom mics don't pick up any of the cymbals, I sub-mixed all three into a stereo pair and, after soloing out that channel, I found that they are not picking up any of the kit noise.

Using what little brain I have, I've narrowed it down to the overhead mic placement. Also, I have used wind guards in the past to soften the sound so I think I may go back to that. Just to give it a whirl.

Thanks again for the input.
 
ZionBound said:
... I am getting alot of cymbal wash in my overheads...
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The problem I had with this thread: aren't you supposed to get alot of cymbal wash in the overheads? I love it to death personally. Can't get too much. Maybe it's because I love my old K Zildjians. What came to mind when I read this is that if I were there and heard the cymbals I'd say "no wonder you don't like it".

You can't fuck with cymbals, either they sound right or don't. Most don't. I am totally against using anything like tape on cymbals, I did that 35 years ago and there's still stains on some of my favorite cymbals that I can't get off, I wish I never, ever, ever did it! It's not the answer, the answer is getting great (not good) cymbals.

When you put tape on a cymbal you're telling it to shut up because you don't like the sound. It's something you only do if you are really in a pinch.
 
Yeah I agree dinty. It seems like some cymbal shopping is gonna be the next thing I have to convince my wife of. "But baby, you don't understand! I NEED new cymbals!" :cool:
 
I use B8"s on my Home kit and they do sound pretty bad , the initial sound is Ok but the wash has some annoying overtones .....

On the kit I use at band practice ( an $8000 custom built DW kit ) I use mostly Paiste Cymbals and these are the best sounding cymbals I have ever heard and they are durable as fuck , I go through about 5 B8"s a year cuz I am really hard on cymbals and these Paisties take a Licking .....

Go Paiste , they are expensive but last forever and sound freaking awesome ...


Cheers
 
Minion said:
I
Go Paiste , they are expensive but last forever and sound freaking awesome ...
Cheers
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I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I've owned a number of Paiste cymbals over the years (starting with the formula 602's that I bought in the late 60's) and a few others. They are sheet cymbals, not caste like Zildjians, Sabian and Istanbul and are very fragile. They crack easier (I am far from a hard hitter). But yes, they sound real good.

I also play mostly jazz and my cymbal of choice is Zildjian Custom A's. They react quick, have great sound and decay at just the right time. For Rock it is the Custom K's all the way. There are so many similar among the Sabian line that can be substituted. I really prefer the sound of the cymbals made by somebody in the Zildjian family.
 
I'm just the opposite. I've never heard any Zildjian that I really liked. Some of the older Z's came close, but the Paiste 2002, RUDE, and Big Beats stomp all over the Zildjians to my ears. I'm not into light tapping jazziness though.
 
As far as Zildjian is concerned, I really like A's and K's (not Customs, but the original). They're both versatile as hell, and sound great. You can use both for hard rock and light jazz. Paiste is also amazing, I love the 2002's and Signatures. Sabian AA is pretty good, although its a very close clone to Zildjian A's. And that effectively describes my cymbal lineup!
 
The thing with Paise is that maybe 1 in a 1000 sounds not so good, whereas with Zildjian 1 in a 1000 sounds good enough you'd want to use it.

For what they are, Wuhan's are bargains. I'm a 50's K Zildjian fanatic, it's pretty much my religion. The K's from the 50's and 60's have nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with the cymbals with the big K on them sold as K Zildjians. It's a different company, different continent, different people.

The deals in cymbals are used. You could buy a set of drums with cymbals and sell them and keep a cymbal you like. Or buy a batch of cymbals and do that.

It doesn't have to be extremely expensive.

Many of my best cymbals have cracks that have been repaired, much like a 1966 Fender bass with it's finish worn off. I'm not scared of cymbals with cracks like most people are. One of my K's was bought for a dollar because it had cracks and without cracks that cymbal would be worth $250 - 600. When I met Steve Gadd he had some cymbals on his set that were cracked to shit. So don't be scared of cracked cymbals - look at them as there's a reason they got used a lot, like the old Fender bass. I doubt whether I could get $5 for the AZ crash I use with it's big chunk out of it, but it sounds world class, better than what you'd get for $150 at a music store.
 
I had a fellow drummer tell me that if I rubbed a bunch of mud onto my current cymbals they "might" sound ok. Is there a line to be drawn between working with what you got and scrapping the cymbals you have? Correct me if I'm wrong. . .nevermind. Answer this: with cymbals, can you make a toad into a prince?

I haven't seen anything to correct/alter a cymbal sound except for an EQ. We all know that an EQ, in the wrong hands, can be devastating. Mic technique and positioning plays a huge role, this we know. But. . . is there something outside of what us cultist are missing.

:spank:
Shame on me for even thinking such a thought.
 
To me there's nothing you can do to "tweak" cymbals. The only thing I know of is using different sticks, but that's pretty minor. I tried a ton of cymbals at the Sabian factory and didn't like any of them. Cymbals do mellow with age.

I don't like using eq or compression on cymbals. Either they sound right or they don't. That's why cymbals have always been the bitch. Drums you can tweak and change stuff forever... cymbals you are stuck with where the guy on the lathe left it. How you play them makes a big difference though, if you listen or just bash like a meathead.

Ride cymbals are always the hardest to get, then hihats... crash cymbals are easier to find.

One thing - if you can stand it, sometimes hotrod type sticks in the right hand can work for recording, and playing soft in clubs. They tend to make cymbals sound a little better than they actually are, if you know what I mean. A ride cymbal that's a yuckster can be ok with hotrods.
 
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