diggy_dude
Now 169% diggier!
Having both sides of an issue is never "needless". It would be absurd to have two separate threads. What if someone reads one thread but not the other? Then they would only have half the story.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Lance...you're now starting to sound like a real chemist who actually knows what he is doing, and is conducting measured tests to prove a point...
...when in reality you are just guessing at stuff and mixing up chemicals without any measured scientific proof and calling it a "treatment process"...yet you say you will only entertain questions from people who have tried the process....????
Don't get lost in your own limited experiments.
No one is going to try something unproven...and just saying "it works" doesn't really count.
Based on what test...the shine???
So like why don't you contact the Nu Finish folks and tell them half of their mixture is not really needed....
You've convinced yourself simply because you are eager to accept something "works", and now you take the position of a scientist...all based on some other guy on some forum who also simply claimed "it works".
That guy had NO CLUE of how to even store his tapes, and he let them turn into a pile of mold...then all of a sudden he discovers a "process" the restores the crud to great tapes. Heck, he could have urinated on those moldy tapes and it would have been a "restoration process" compared to the condition they were in!!!
I'm sure if he was polishing guitars with Turtle Wax instead of Nu Finish..he would have tried the Turtle Wax on the tapes. The Nu Finish was just the first thing in front of him...very scientific.
I would try the Nu Finish just for amusement ...but I don't have any tapes I'm willing to sacrifice, nor do I wish to smear that stuff all over my tape guides...and I would LOVE to see what it does to the rubber pinch roller over time!!!
...when in reality you are just guessing at stuff and mixing up chemicals without any measured scientific proof and calling it a "treatment process"...yet you say you will only entertain questions from people who have tried the process....????
Don't get lost in your own limited experiments.
No one is going to try something unproven...and just saying "it works" doesn't really count.
Based on what test...the shine???
So like why don't you contact the Nu Finish folks and tell them half of their mixture is not really needed....
You've convinced yourself simply because you are eager to accept something "works", and now you take the position of a scientist...all based on some other guy on some forum who also simply claimed "it works".
That guy had NO CLUE of how to even store his tapes, and he let them turn into a pile of mold...then all of a sudden he discovers a "process" the restores the crud to great tapes. Heck, he could have urinated on those moldy tapes and it would have been a "restoration process" compared to the condition they were in!!!
I'm sure if he was polishing guitars with Turtle Wax instead of Nu Finish..he would have tried the Turtle Wax on the tapes. The Nu Finish was just the first thing in front of him...very scientific.
I would try the Nu Finish just for amusement ...but I don't have any tapes I'm willing to sacrifice, nor do I wish to smear that stuff all over my tape guides...and I would LOVE to see what it does to the rubber pinch roller over time!!!
cjacek
Analogue Enthusiast
Lance, you're basically telling people, who don't share your view point or who haven't tried your "treatment", to f**k off. It's a nice way to lose credibility. That I haven't poured diesel into my "unleaded only" gasoline tank doesn't mean I have to do it to know its consequence. You're way in too deep and deluding yourself.
L
Lance Lawson
New member
Lance...you're now starting to sound like a real chemist who actually knows what he is doing, and is conducting measured tests to prove a point...
...when in reality you are just guessing at stuff and mixing up chemicals without any measured scientific proof and calling it a "treatment process"...yet you say you will only entertain questions from people who have tried the process....????
Don't get lost in your own limited experiments.
No one is going to try something unproven...and just saying "it works" doesn't really count.
Based on what test...the shine???
So like why don't you contact the Nu Finish folks and tell them half of their mixture is not really needed....
You've convinced yourself simply because you are eager to accept something "works", and now you take the position of a scientist...all based on some other guy on some forum who also simply claimed "it works".
That guy had NO CLUE of how to even store his tapes, and he let them turn into a pile of mold...then all of a sudden he discovers a "process" the restores the crud to great tapes. Heck, he could have urinated on those moldy tapes and it would have been a "restoration process" compared to the condition they were in!!!
I'm sure if he was polishing guitars with Turtle Wax instead of Nu Finish..he would have tried the Turtle Wax on the tapes. The Nu Finish was just the first thing in front of him...very scientific.
I would try the Nu Finish just for amusement ...but I don't have any tapes I'm willing to sacrifice, nor do I wish to smear that stuff all over my tape guides...and I would LOVE to see what it does to the rubber pinch roller over time!!!
Alright I'll come clean while I'm not a chemist I am an environmental engineer who has significant time in field research that included a fair amount of time in the lab and huge amounts field testing of samples. I'm not a stranger to the lab environment. In my work as a guitar builder I've had the pleasure using endless finishes, polishes etc. I've learned more about cross linking polymers than I've cared to know sometimes.
BTW it was the fact that the discoverer of this treatment was finishing guitars and bases that I decided to look him up. I have over 20 years of finish experience and 40+ years of reel to reel tape and recording experience. Why would I need to contact NuFinish? Someone else is on behalf of tape community. The ironic part of this is even those such as yourself will benefit in spite laughing it off.
Have you any lab or chemical experience? You'd be amazed at how much is based on observation. But to answer your question I applied and observed the results. I tested the strength of the coating by applying abrasive pressure to the coating using a polished chrome steel socket clasped by the fingers to feel the resistance as I moved the tool across the treated surface and into the untreated surface. The tool did not mark the applied finish and the drag as the tool went from the treated surface to the untreated surface was significant. Next I washed the treated surface with Napthalene to test it's resistance to hydrocarbon chemical attack. The Nu Finish partially resisted the Napthalene. The last chemical test was using a product called PrepSol. Its designed to remove wax like substances. The PrepSol removed the remaining NuFinish.
Please amuse yourself by trying the treatment. You're amusing me in a negative sort of way.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't have a reason to try it. I don't have any sticky, shedding tape.
I'm still trying to find the "positive" in your posts about this "process".
Don't forget to keep an eye on the rubber pinch roller. The Nu Finish will either glaze it or cause it to deteriorate over time.
I'm curious...if I came here and said I tried Lemon Pledge furniture polish on my tapes and that I think it works because that's what I've "observed"...would you run out and get some Lemon Pledge???
Dude...you need an electron microscope to truly "observe" what is happening to the tape, and a whole chem lab to really test the effects of Nu Finish on the tape.
Good luck with that....
L
Lance Lawson
New member
I tried Pledge in 1998 results unacceptable. Not the NuFinish won't affect the pinch roller. The material is dry/setup by the time the tape gets run through the transport. The capstan/pinchroller have not exhibited any loss of traction or function. Since the overall tape develops less friction the tapedrive is working easier anyway.
Interesting you have so sticky tapes yet you're cluttering up a thread that has a something real to offer those who do have sticky tape. But you don't need sticky tape to test the process and feel the results that are satellite to the treatment such as smoother running through the transport.
L
Lance Lawson
New member
I tried Pledge in 1998 results unacceptable. No the NuFinish won't affect the pinch roller. The material is dry/setup by the time the tape gets run through the transport. The capstan/pinchroller have not exhibited any loss of traction or function. Since the overall tape develops less friction the tapedrive is working easier anyway.
Interesting you have no sticky tapes yet you're cluttering up a thread that has a something real to offer those who do have sticky tape. But you don't need sticky tape to test the process and feel the results that are satellite to the treatment such as smoother running through the transport. Did you know that Scotch impregnated some of its tape with silicone as a lubricant? Scotch 144 was one of them and today it leaves a white powder all over the roller and transport. I treated the 144 with NuFinish. No more white powder. Tape runs clean sounds fine.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
After many MANY years in this business one thing I've discovered about human nature pretty much always holds true. Anyone saying they have a way to fix something but will not brook ANY discussion about it other than praise isn't really interested in learning or teaching.
There were those with polite legitimate questions. Like me for instance. I got the exact same results on cotton swabs without and nu-finish ..... just plain cotton swabs. Also ... what about my legitimate question concerning the fact that the whole problem with sticky shed is that you don't want to remove the oxide? No way a tape that has a good amount of its' oxide removed records as well as it did when new.
The whole point of baking is that it stabilizes the oxide and lets you play the tape to get whatever is on it archived. It's not to be able to continue to use the tape.
I don't really have a dog in this hunt because I only have old tapes to be archived and baking will work just fine for that.
But if you're so defensive that you declare you won't respond to anyone that questions you, then you end up pretty silly looking.
The ONLY thing to conclude is that you're not able to come up with responses. If your method is so good then competent, intelligent responses to legitimate questions would be no problem and you wouldn't mind because you'd be eager to show off your discovery.
Instead you pontificate and act superior so it's pretty hard to take you seriously.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Mmmmm...the whole point of the pinch roller is to create friction with the capstan and tape since that's how the tape is pulled across the heads. If you ever "observed" the effects of a really slick/shiny/frictionless rubber roller...it slips. You think that because the Nu Finish is dry before you run the tape across the pinch roller that it won't come off...but then consider that the chemicals on the tape are normally dry, yet after a bunch of passes some of them come off and end up on the pinch roller (and guides)...and the pinch roller gets "glazed", and you have to remove that stuff.
So now you are putting a *polish* on the pinch roller......
I have none at the moment, but I've dealt with sticky tape...and what I am adding to this thread is a realistic, objective counterpoint to your home-brewed, unscientific observations.
There was a guy on YouTube touting the value of smearing liquid lubricant all over his heads and guides because he felt it made the transport smoother. You might want to look him up, you guys should compare notes.
Here's that guy:
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
anyone sensing 'victory Pete' here?
L
Lance Lawson
New member
Mmmmm...the whole point of the pinch roller is to create friction with the capstan and tape since that's how the tape is pulled across the heads. If you ever "observed" the effects of a really slick/shiny/frictionless rubber roller...it slips. You think that because the Nu Finish is dry before you run the tape across the pinch roller that it won't come off...but then consider that the chemicals on the tape are normally dry, yet after a bunch of passes some of them come off and end up on the pinch roller (and guides)...and the pinch roller gets "glazed", and you have to remove that stuff.
So now you are putting a *polish* on the pinch roller......
I have none at the moment, but I've dealt with sticky tape...and what I am adding to this thread is a realistic, objective counterpoint to your home-brewed, unscientific observations.
There was a guy on YouTube touting the value of smearing liquid lubricant all over his heads and guides because he felt it made the transport smoother. You might want to look him up, you guys should compare notes.
Here's that guy:
Why should I compare notes with that youtube fellow? This is about treating tapes not heads. Please don't construct additions concerning what is being done to my machine. I haven't treated the roller with anything, in the 30+ years I've owned the machine I've never treated the roller with anything. Roller is original perfect condition BTW.
In any event the progress with this treatment is going on elsewhere and at least one TEAC technician is running tests on the process. Soon the results will be in the hands of a tape restoration company for further testing. As for victory as noted by LT Bob what victory is that? I'm able to run tapes now that were useless and every indication points to the treatment I described being effective, controllable, inexpensive and repeatable.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I didn't say you were treating the pinch roller...I said that the direct action of running a tape treated with car polish will end up also "treating" the pinch roller (and everything else it touches) with that same car polish (regardless if it is wet or dry)...and putting any polish on a pinch roller is 180° opposite of what you would want to do...
...but I'm sure you will observe a nice shine on the rubber.
Hey...put up the actual scientific findings of TEAC and that tape restoration company when they are ready.
Please don't come back and simply tell us that they also just "think" car polish "works" on tape to permanently cure tape stick/shed.
If there is some real scientific data that proves car polish is the miracle cure analog tape recordists have been searching for over the last 25 years....I'll be happy to say I was wrong and then I'll head over to Auto Zone for a bottle of Nu Finish.
...but I'm sure you will observe a nice shine on the rubber.
Hey...put up the actual scientific findings of TEAC and that tape restoration company when they are ready.
Please don't come back and simply tell us that they also just "think" car polish "works" on tape to permanently cure tape stick/shed.
If there is some real scientific data that proves car polish is the miracle cure analog tape recordists have been searching for over the last 25 years....I'll be happy to say I was wrong and then I'll head over to Auto Zone for a bottle of Nu Finish.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I didn't say squat about victory ..... I made a reference to an individual named 'Victory Pete' .... if you didn't know him then it's basically not for you. But you sound a lot like him. Just noting the similarities.
B
Beck
Guest
Honestly the original info from Koon sounded like an April 1st hoax. In fact I remember as I started taking in what he was saying I looked up to make sure it hadn’t been posted on April 1st.
I appreciate what you’re saying about real world testing, but there is a certain amount of science that is necessary when judging which things to pursue. We could try lighter fluid, Windex or even pancake syrup… Mrs. Butterworth original.
I won’t though because I already know those aren’t appropriate remedies. There’s a long list of things we could try.
Keen talks about putting “copious amounts” of NuFinnish on the tape… so much that it’s squeezing out from in between the tape layers on the reel. I can’t imagine anyone really doing that anywhere around a tape machine even if you do bypass the tape path. Imagine going through this process with each tape you buy! The bottom line is to understand what sticky-shed is first before running with an idea of how to remedy it.
Koon had no background whatsoever at Tape-Op, but posted this idea out of the blue as a new member. That is most certainly something important to look at when evaluating credibility. The original info from Koon was intended to facilitate the sale of sticky shed tape, or NuFinnish, or it’s the cruel hoax from someone who delights in inconveniencing others. We’ve had our share of trolls over the years targeting analog enthusiasts. The person known as ggoat at Tape-Op is likely the evil twin of another member there who got into an argument and was seeking vengeance. If not it sure would be a great hoax to put out this sort of info because it is so far off. If I were you I would go back a reread it with a skeptical eye. The red flags jump out at you then. He opened an account, presented this work of fiction and was never heard from again. Red flags indeed.
If you want to look at the general practice of using lubricant on a tape path, that practice was discounted and abandoned long ago as a bad idea. The reasons are the substance wears off and clogs tape heads and the long-term chemical interactions on various tapes that come into contact with it are unpredictable.
There are no fixes for new tape from the sticky shed years. Baking (or anything else) is a heroic measure to recover previously recorded material that would otherwise be lost. But after it’s recovered the tape goes in its rightful place… the garbage can! End of story.
I appreciate what you’re saying about real world testing, but there is a certain amount of science that is necessary when judging which things to pursue. We could try lighter fluid, Windex or even pancake syrup… Mrs. Butterworth original.
I won’t though because I already know those aren’t appropriate remedies. There’s a long list of things we could try. Keen talks about putting “copious amounts” of NuFinnish on the tape… so much that it’s squeezing out from in between the tape layers on the reel. I can’t imagine anyone really doing that anywhere around a tape machine even if you do bypass the tape path. Imagine going through this process with each tape you buy! The bottom line is to understand what sticky-shed is first before running with an idea of how to remedy it.
Koon had no background whatsoever at Tape-Op, but posted this idea out of the blue as a new member. That is most certainly something important to look at when evaluating credibility. The original info from Koon was intended to facilitate the sale of sticky shed tape, or NuFinnish, or it’s the cruel hoax from someone who delights in inconveniencing others. We’ve had our share of trolls over the years targeting analog enthusiasts. The person known as ggoat at Tape-Op is likely the evil twin of another member there who got into an argument and was seeking vengeance. If not it sure would be a great hoax to put out this sort of info because it is so far off. If I were you I would go back a reread it with a skeptical eye. The red flags jump out at you then. He opened an account, presented this work of fiction and was never heard from again. Red flags indeed.
If you want to look at the general practice of using lubricant on a tape path, that practice was discounted and abandoned long ago as a bad idea. The reasons are the substance wears off and clogs tape heads and the long-term chemical interactions on various tapes that come into contact with it are unpredictable.
There are no fixes for new tape from the sticky shed years. Baking (or anything else) is a heroic measure to recover previously recorded material that would otherwise be lost. But after it’s recovered the tape goes in its rightful place… the garbage can! End of story.
GCalo
Member
I looked at NuFinish. There is no wax in it and thus I have assume there are no cleaners or abrasives either.
I believe it is a polymer finish only. So I doubt there is any abrasive quality to it.
I did not read the part about "no plastics" as Cory stated because I was not concerned about ingredients. I may go back to that store to re-read contents if stated.
It could be there is a "replacement polymer" process going on here, and that could be why it appears to be working.
It appears to be silicone based - have to check the plastics compatibility issue though.
I believe it is a polymer finish only. So I doubt there is any abrasive quality to it.
I did not read the part about "no plastics" as Cory stated because I was not concerned about ingredients. I may go back to that store to re-read contents if stated.
It could be there is a "replacement polymer" process going on here, and that could be why it appears to be working.
It appears to be silicone based - have to check the plastics compatibility issue though.
diggy_dude
Now 169% diggier!
What is it with this new breed of "scientists" who are so emotionally invested in their theories (e.g., global warming) that they won't tolerate any dissenting views?
Lance, most of us can't afford to risk ruining a tape recorder on the off chance that you're proven right and there are no ill effects 5, 10, or 20 years down the road. The cost of repairing or replacing damaged parts will be even higher then than it is now. Therefore, your "don't knock it till you try it" argument doesn't hold water. I would much rather cry over a reel of sticky tape than a damaged recorder.
Lance, most of us can't afford to risk ruining a tape recorder on the off chance that you're proven right and there are no ill effects 5, 10, or 20 years down the road. The cost of repairing or replacing damaged parts will be even higher then than it is now. Therefore, your "don't knock it till you try it" argument doesn't hold water. I would much rather cry over a reel of sticky tape than a damaged recorder.
GCalo
Member
All new theories are great and need to be proven.
Just remember what scientists thought about Einstein's theory at first!
NuFinish does not post a contact e-mail! So not able to verify what's up with their product.
Just remember what scientists thought about Einstein's theory at first!
NuFinish does not post a contact e-mail! So not able to verify what's up with their product.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I've not bothered to go to an auto parts store to read the Nu Finish lable...but even Lance states there is more than pure polymer sealant in the mix, and it may very well be an abrasive:
What I was curious about was how the polymer got separated from the ceramic material if it came mixed in one bottle?
L
Lance Lawson
New member
You break the emulsion/suspension with a solvent. Decanter off the polymer laced solvent, evaporate the solvent away leaving only the polymer behind which is a thick oily liquid.
sweetbeats
Reel deep thoughts...
The caution against plastics is found on the very last question "What surfaces shouldn't I polish with Nu Finish?" in the car polish FAQ at the Nu Finish site located here:
Car Care Questions
In that same FAQ under the question "What is the difference between a polish and a conventional wax?" it states that Nu Finish polish is made up of a "series of zinc cross-linking polymer emulsions..."
Don't know spcifically what that means to this discussion but thought relevant since we are discussing the makeup of Nu Finish polish.