Crossover recommendations

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TornadoTed

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I'm thinking of building some main monitors to replace my Tannoy DMT 15 MkII's. I've looked into ATC's P4 monoblock amplifier and crossover but it weighs in at £4500 (roughly $8100) and of course I'd need 2 so I've been thinking of a cheaper solution using some of the kit I have already.

I've got a pair of ATC 15" bass drivers already and I want to add an ATC midrange and Seas Excel Millenium tweeters. I've got no problem with building the cabs. I have 2 Chameleon power amps driving my Tannoys and I intend to get another to tri-amp the new speakers. What crossover would you recommend I get?

I looked at a Dbx 234xl which is a 3 way stereo crossover but I must admit this is something I know hardly anything about so do you have any recommendations? Is this for live use, would it do those drive units justice? What about hi-fi crossovers?

Any thoughts at all on this project of mine would be fantastic.
 
TornadoTed said:
I'm thinking of building some main monitors to replace my Tannoy DMT 15 MkII's. I've looked into ATC's P4 monoblock amplifier and crossover but it weighs in at £4500 (roughly $8100) and of course I'd need 2 so I've been thinking of a cheaper solution using some of the kit I have already.

I've got a pair of ATC 15" bass drivers already and I want to add an ATC midrange and Seas Excel Millenium tweeters. I've got no problem with building the cabs. I have 2 Chameleon power amps driving my Tannoys and I intend to get another to tri-amp the new speakers. What crossover would you recommend I get?

I looked at a Dbx 234xl which is a 3 way stereo crossover but I must admit this is something I know hardly anything about so do you have any recommendations? Is this for live use, would it do those drive units justice? What about hi-fi crossovers?

Any thoughts at all on this project of mine would be fantastic.
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The dbx is an active crossover, so you need separate amps for each band, that may change your plans some. It has line-level outputs, so it won't drive speakers.

Whoops, just saw you intend to tri-amp, sorry, forget I said anything.

I don't know about crossover design, but as far as implementing, the big drawback to something like the 234 is you can't choose the type of crossover or it's slope, which you need to be able to do for best performance. My PA, for instance, likes a Linkwitz-Reilly between the highs and mids, but a shallower Butterworth on the subs, and a very steep highpass at about 45hz. For monitors in a studio, I imagine these type of decisions are even more critical. And in any case, pretty dependent on the finished box and drivers, and how they interact.
 
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The ATC SCM150 monitors that I am pretty much copying have crossover frequencies of 380 Hz and 3.5 Khz. That's an interesting point about the type of filters needed. After some more research I'm keen on the ATC EC23, does anyone have much experience with this crossover?
 
Have a look at the Behringer Ultradrive it will do exactly what you are after. The sound quality is perfectly acceptable. Try dv247.com for good prices and service.
The ATC dome midranges are just about as good as you can get. Also have a look at the Scan Speak Revelator tweeters, I have used them on my own build monitors (with Volt Bass Drivers) and they are pretty much S.O.A.

Tony

p.s. I have a pair of ATC scm50,s that I value greatly.
 
Cheers for the recommendation on the Berhinger, I wouldn't usually touch Beringher with a barge pole but I'll have a good look at that unit. I looked at the Scan-speak Revelator and the Ring Radiator. I haven't fully decided on the exact treble unit I'll use yet, but I was looking to build some Wilmslow Audio Nearfield monitors and they use the Seas Millenium Tweeter so that had swung my decision so far. Anyway I'm off camping to Yorkshire for a week so speaker building will have to put on hold for now!!
 
I know this will sound like typical anti Behringer babble, but it is based on real life experience. The Behringer will do in a pinch if you just need to get up and running for cheap, but it will not be a good sounding option. A dbx or Ashly analog crossover will sound much better. Personally, if you are building nice speakers, don't skimp on the crossover or it defeats the purpose of building good speakers. I am not familiar with ATC crossover you mention, but I would imagine that it would be pretty nice since ATC specializes in nice equipment. If you decide on an outboard crossover, take a look at BSS or XTA. Both will offer all of the options you need and incredible sound quality at the same time. Just my 2 cents....
 
xstatic said:
I know this will sound like typical anti Behringer babble, but it is based on real life experience. .
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1) Yes it does.

2) My opinions obviously come from the grave.

3) I own and use ATC units and can assure you that even using SOA drivers like ATC, Scan-Speak etc. the Behringer is NOT the weaklink. The Ultradrive is being used more and more in Audiophile circles.

One of these days Mr. Xstatic you will agree with me, then I will know I am wrong!! :)

Just my Farthings worth.

Tony
 
I gotta admit to being pleasantly surprised at the ultradrive. I won't give up my main rig (dbx Driverack 480) but it was definitely OK. In live stuff, the dynamic eq is particularly useful, and their notch filter anti-FB is top drawer, no matter what anyone says. For sure it blows away a dbx driverack PA as far as sound, and probably at least equals the 260.

If you are willing to pony up the dough for an ATC, for sure check out the XTA and BSS stuff xstatic talked about.
 
For an inexpensive choice, the Ranes are worth looking at. I picked one up--haven't pressed it into service yet, but it's very solidly constructed and the schemo looks good--right parts in the right places.
 
Sorry if you took any of that personally Wilkee, it was not a personal attack by any means. However, I do have the right to state my opinions. Personally, I will not use by choice a behringer speaker processor. The last thing I want a Behringer to do is process my audio, especially my main mix. I do have a little motorized fader surface by Behringer. It's fun:) I do have some Behringer quad gates in a couple of my racks, they seem to work OK and are super cheap, and run cool in the extreme heat. I even don't mind the Behringer Composer pro. However, there is a reason why you rarely ever see Behringer equipment in nice racks. There are many of us out there that would rather bypass a piece of gear than let something cheap and nasty process things. Personally, I am not a fan of the DBX Driverack PA either. For that matter, I don't even like having to run my mains off of my Driverack 480 system. I would put my BSS drive units up against the Behringer stuff any day. In my opinion it is even worth it considering it cost me 10 times more.
 
Cheers for all the replies and ideas. I still haven't decided what I'm going to go for but at least I have a few options to look at now.
 
I've been looking at the Ashly XR-2001 today a 3 way stereo crossover, looks really impressive and will do all I want it to do. I can't seem to find a web site for Ashly, anyone know if they have one? Also anyone got any first hand experience of Ashly gear, is the build, sound quality good etc? One other question, I know that I set the crossover to split the bass, mid and treble (380 Hz and 3.5 Khz for the ATC SCM150's I trying to roughly replicate. Do I need a filter to filter out low frequencies as well ie below 25 Hz or does it not really matter?
 
xstatic said:
Personally, I am not a fan of the DBX Driverack PA either.
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Ouch! I was thinking about one of those. They aren't exactly cheap--would you ever recommend one, like for a hack FOH guy that just does freebie work? Or an alternative?
 
As far as the Ashley stuff goes, it sounds pretty decent. It has good parameter options and certainly gets the job done. All of my Ashly crossovers have developed a little scratchiness in the pots. However, mine have all seen years of abusive outdorr rock'n'roll and many shows in rodeo arena's etc... The pots are not sealed and easy to clean, and even easy to replace (with some decent soldering skills). All in all the Ashly's are still some of my favorite analog crossovers. Great comprise between price and performance.

About the DBX Driverack PA. First of all, it just doesn't sound that good. However, I am used to using BSS and XTA and stuff in the likes of that, so my opinion may be a little tilted. The crossover screens on the DBX PA rack are easy to set and to navigate, but the EQ's are a little less friendly. As far as the EQ's go, I would do just about anything necessary to avoid the EQ and the compressor/limiter sections on the DBX PA rack. Also, I (like most engineers out there) do not believe in using the Feedback reduction crap and RTA stuff on those toys. First, how accurate can the RTA be with the cheap converters and cheap mic that you have to use? It doesn'treally help to get a more expensive mic, because than it will change the way the RTA works. As purely a crossover the Driverack PA works OK, but you still have the A/D and D/A involved or whatever it is that is non flattering that the DBX Driverack PA seems to impart. Personally, since all I ever use them for is a crossover, why not just get an analog crossover with less options (that read be less crap to screw things up even more)? I also hate going into a club where they use the onboard EQ's as graphics. If I need to change something quickly and on the left and right channels of a graphic EQ, how am I supposed to do that paging through menu's on this teeny little LCD screen?

If it were me, I would take the $500 you were going to spend on a DBX PA rack and put it away pretending it did not exist. Then pretend you wanted a DBX Driverack PA and start saving up for one. As soon as you get your $500 saved up, turn away from guitar center andgo home WITHOUT the DBX PA rack. Then call some proaudio companies in your area and go demo the difference between the PA rack and a BSS minidrive. You will be sad when they tell you that it is going to cost $1200 because afterhearing the BSS you will never want to think about the DBX again, but you are now thinking you will have no choice. Then you will remeber about the $500 you put away. Wow, now you are only $200 short. Go donate blood orpick up some newspaper delivery shifts or whatever, but get the rest of the money you need and get your BSS. Now you will be happy because EVERY show you do ( unless they already have a nice BSS, XTA, LAKE, or Klarkk TEknik processoron the system) will now sound better. YOu may even decide to keepthose speakers you were just about to sell:D
 
Hmmm. Well, maybe I'll just score one of their analog compressors--I thought one of them was supposed to be decent--the 166? and some analog graphic EQ. I don't really need a crossover at this point, since I'm mainly reliant on house systems. I have the Rane if I need one real bad, although I'm supposed to be putting that in the home studio.
 
I would feel much better using DBX analog EQ's and compressors than their digital ones:) And no, that is not because I have something against digital. The Bss is digital too:)
 
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