Converting Channel Inserts to Direct Outs?

Adam P said:
The insert point is wired normally closed from tip to ring. Clicking "one click" connects the Tip of your cable (TS or TRS, doesn't matter) to the ring of the insert without breaking the normal. Since the insert point's tip is normalled to the ring, and your cable's tip is touching the ring, the insert point is sending signal from the tip through the ring and to the cable, and also to the mixer's channel via its standard signal path.

If you plug the cable in all the way, it breaks the normal from tip to ring in the insert point. Now, you're sending signal from the tip of the insert to the tip of the cable. However, since the normal is now broken, no signal is being sent to the ring of the insert point and, consequently, to the rest of the channel strip of the mixer.

Whether or not you're using TS or TRS cables is inconsequential. Either way, you're only using the Tip and Sleeve connectors, and the signal will always be unbalanced.
Click to expand...

So where is your sleeve (ground) connected?
As for your second paragraph, I believe I already pointed that out, although not in the techincal terms you used.
And your third paragraph, of course it's unbalanced.

So explain to me this? What's the difference between plugging in a TRS cable to one click, and a TS cable all the way? absolutley nothing right? I think we agree on that.
I was commenting on plugging a TS cable in all the way versus plugging it in 1 click. I think we basically said the same thing but in different ways. As I said earlier, if you do plug it in all the way, you'd have to return the signal from the aardvark outputs back to the behringer, (since you've broken the normal, as you put it), if you wanted to see it back at the behringer

Chief, I figured it was that -10/+4 issue. Sorry you can't update your software. Poor design on the part of aardvark if you ask me, but glad you're going to be able to make it work. Good luck with the Mod, and I hope you're happy with it.
 
Why dont you just plug in an insert cable (single TRS on one end, dual mono TS on the other end) use the send plug as your direct out, and skip all that electronics voodoo and get back to making music...... then you also still have the return if you decide to experiment with the signal....

I'd be surprised if your insert send is pre-trim......which is what it would have to be if it is sending a super hot signal out to your pc and you dont have any control over it with the trim gain knob....

EDIT: Never mind....
 
RAK said:
So where is your sleeve (ground) connected?
Click to expand...

The sleeve of your cable is touching the sleeve connection of the insert point. It doesn't matter if its plugged all the way in, or just to one "click".

So explain to me this? What's the difference between plugging in a TRS cable to one click, and a TS cable all the way? absolutley nothing right? I think we agree on that.
Click to expand...

No, we don't agree on that. Plugging a TRS cable in one click will not interrupt the signal beyond the insert point to the rest of the mixer. Plugging a TS cable all the way in will break the normal between tip and ring, and consequently interrupt the signal.

I was commenting on plugging a TS cable in all the way versus plugging it in 1 click. I think we basically said the same thing but in different ways.
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You said:

RAK said:
So if you want to use an Insert as a Direct Out (send only), you want to use a TS cable to Send on the Tip, and still have the Ground connected. So if you have a TS cable only plugged in to 1 click, then you're not connecting the Ground (or maybe you're not connecting the Tip). Either way I believe you've got an incomplete connection that is probably causing some problems.
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which is incorrect because you do have a complete connection. The sleeve of your cable is touching the sleeve of the jack. The Tip of the cable is touching the ring of the jack, which receives signal via the as-yet-unbroken normal from the jack's tip. The signal passes from jack tip to jack ring, and from there to both cable tip and to the rest of the channel strip.

Also:

With a Tip/Ring/Sleeve cable, if you plug in only 1 click, then you're bypassing the Ring, and you're still connected with the Ground and the Hot (send), which is how you can use a TRS cable as a Direct Out

This does interrupt the signal however, so if you want to get it back to your Behringer, you need to use your Aardvark ouputs to send back to the Behringer.
Click to expand...

which is also incorrect. Plugging the cable (either TS or TRS) to only one click does not interrupt the signal, because the normal from jack tip to jack ring is not broken, and will not break unless the cable is plugged all the way in.

I would actually use TS cables as opposed to TRS cables for this application. For starters, you will not benefit in any way from using the TRS cables, as the insert signal is unbalanced. Additionally, using a TRS cable could run the chance of the cable Ring coming into contact with the jack's sleeve, which could be detrimental.
 
I've been plugging TS cables halfway into insert points in order to get a pre-fader output for over 20 years in all kinds of applications - recording, live sound, cue mixing, etc. Adam P explained it perfectly.

For those that are arguing that it "shouldn't work" I suggest before continuing to post your theoretical objections, grab a mixer and just try it. The trick is to get it to the exact depth where the connection is made - you may want to run a continuous signal (like a CD track) through the channel while trying it, so you know when to stop pushing the plug into the jack.

I really don't think that I (and thousands of other engineers) have been hallucinating for decades. But i suppose it's possible - there was that bad acid I did once....
 
The one click trick is so ubiquitous that it's even recommend in most mixer manufacturer's user's manuals.

From the Mackie website FAQ (just for one example):

"The insert jack can also be used as two different types of direct outs.

If a tip-sleeve 1/4" cable is plugged all the way in to the second click, the signal is sent out from the tip (output) of the insert jack and does not return to the ring (input), which breaks the loop and does not allow signal to flow through the rest of the channel. This is referred to as a direct out with signal interruption. if a tip-sleeve 1/4" cable is plugged in only to the first click, the signal is sent out the cable and continues through the channel, since the insert loop has not been broken. This is referred to as a direct without signal interruption."

Also, see attached the diagram from the 1604 Owner's Manual.

As for the question about where is the sleeve connected, it's still connected via the sleeve contact. With a TS cable going one click into a TRS jack, the tip of the plug is clicking only so far as the ring position in the jack; i.e. since the plug is not going in all the way to the second click (the "tip" contact in the jack), the normaled signal through the channel strip is not interrupted and the direct signal is being tapped out through the ring contact on the jack. But because it's a TS plug, the sleeve is immediately behind the tip and is still connecting to the sleeve connector in the jack. Nothing lost there, and the circuit is still completed.

"One click, one click only." - Sean Connery in "The Hunt For Red Rocktober"

G.
 

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Adam P said:
Plugging the cable (either TS or TRS) to only one click does not interrupt the signal, because the normal from jack tip to jack ring is not broken, and will not break unless the cable is plugged all the way in.

I would actually use TS cables as opposed to TRS cables for this application. For starters, you will not benefit in any way from using the TRS cables, as the insert signal is unbalanced. Additionally, using a TRS cable could run the chance of the cable Ring coming into contact with the jack's sleeve, which could be detrimental.
Click to expand...

Adam P, What I was referring to is that you would interrupt the signal if you plugged a TS cable in all the way, which is, I believe also what you are saying. My point was if you did plug a TS cable in all the way, then you would have to return the signal from the Aardvark to the Behringer (because you're interupting it by plugging the TS cable in all the way). I apologize if I wasn't clear on that.

I certainly was at no point saying this is a strange way of doing things. Manufacturers absolutely suggest this, and everyone does it (including me)

You're absolutely right about no difference between TRS and TS if they're plugged in to 1 click (both unbalanced). So there would be no reason to use TRS cables. I think I've concurred with you on that a few times now.

I suppose I didn't realize that plugging a TS cable into 1 click doesn't interrupt the normal the way plugging it in all the way does, (which is why I was confused at the time why he wouldn't just plug in his TS cables all the way), but again when I suggested using TS cables plugged in all the way, I explained about needing to return the signal to see it in his behringer. So you can see that I did understand this interrupted the normal.

It had never occured to me to plug in a TS cable 1 click (TRS cable 1 click I understood), but TS cables I always plugged in all the way, thus interrupting the normal, but that was never a problem, since I didn't need them returned from where I was sending them. Although now I know if I wanted to, I can plug in a TS cable 1 click. (of course it's easier to just have direct outs)

And once again I'd like to point out his problem was with level reference
(-10dbu/+4dbu), so if anyone is chiming in at this point in the thread, this balanced/unbalanced issue is not relevant to the original problem, which I think was solved a few posts ago, but this is still an interesting conversation.

I hope I've been able to explain where I've been coming from on this.
 
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RAK said:
And once again I'd like to point out his problem was with level reference
(-4dbu/+10dbu), so if anyone is chiming in at this point in the thread, this balanced/unbalanced issue is not relevant to the original problem, which I think was solved a few posts ago, but this is still an interesting conversation.
Click to expand...

which is why I've stayed out of this since I found my answer. :p I found the problem, and am taking necessary steps to fix it i.e the mod that tarnationsauce posted. and now I'll let you guys duke the rest of it out.
 
Chief Pronto, I'd be very interested to know how the mod comes out. I hope it's going well. It's strange that Aardvark would make a recording interface that can only be referenced to -10dbu. I would imagine that most people would be connecting to it with +4dbu outputs. At least they wised up with their later versions (not that that helped you, as you shared with us).

Let us know how it goes. Re-wiring projects are always fun (when they work at the end).
 
RAK said:
Chief Pronto, I'd be very interested to know how the mod comes out. I hope it's going well. It's strange that Aardvark would make a recording interface that can only be referenced to -10dbu. I would imagine that most people would be connecting to it with +4dbu outputs. At least they wised up with their later versions (not that that helped you, as you shared with us).

Let us know how it goes. Re-wiring projects are always fun (when they work at the end).
Click to expand...


mind if I just link to the PDF forum? hell of a lot easier for me.....

http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/showpost.php?p=1851305110&postcount=20

and I'm going out in an hour or so to hunt down the wire I need.... so far 3 places havent had it.


and yeah it's odd that Aardvark would do that. What's even weirder is that I recorded an entire album like this, and it came out great.
 
Hi! Sorry no one came close to your particular issue. I see that the mixer has 'Trim' or 'Gain' (before-channel) pots. Most don't understand that the insert signal is POST-gain and PRE-fader. This means that you can attenuate the signal going out the insert jacks using the trim/gain pot. Further, I didn't notice, but the Eurodesk may also have an attenuation button to attenuate or prepare signals that are either balanced (typically XLR) or unbalanced or 'line-level', (like an electric guitar) inputs. If the switch is present, it will 'lower' the gain to -20 or -10 db and match the impedance in your PC's sound card input. Check these settings. By the way, if you're able to do a little minor soldering, you can make direct-out cables pretty easily. Just loop the RING contact back by soldering both the tip and ring wires from that jack to a TS (common 1/4" FEMALE) jack. This makes the signal pass through the channel AND to your direct-out target. I've made sereral of these fairly inexpensively, (about $4.00 each). and they work just fine on my Mackie 24/4 VLZ board to send it to a Yamaha AW 4416 to simultaneously record and send signal to monitors or busses on the Mackie.
 
Make Your Own Cable - No more 'First-Click Position..."

Chief Pronto said:
Hey there, I have a Behringer MX2004 that I got for extremely cheap and too good a deal for me to sell off at this point. So I want to keep the sucker.

The only problem I'm getting is that when I bought it, I thought it had 8 direct outs, but it turns out they're actually channel inserts. I figured I'd try it out with those, and before I learned about that "stick the cable in halfway" trick, I shoved the cable in fullway.

What happens is even with the mic gain all the way down, the signal sent to my computer is far too loud. Is that normal? Will sticking it in halfway reduce the gain at all? To me it doesn't make sense that with the gain all the way down to 0, the signal sent is clipping.

With the Behringer mixers that have direct outs, they are post-fader I believe, so the signal sent out has flown through the EQs and faders, but with mine, it's pre-fader. Is there a way to physically convert my 8 channel inserts into direct outs so I don't have to do the "halfway" trick? Not only do I want the signal to be trimmed when I trim it, but to have the EQ and faders etc have an affect on my signal would be beneficial...

EDIT: and with further reading on this forum, the official name for the trick I mention is the first-click trick. I know there are many threads on that already, but I was wondering if there was a way I could rip the mixer open, tinker around inside and physically convert the inserts to direct outs.
Click to expand...

Go Here: How to use an Insert Point as a Direct Out - Powered by Kayako Help Desk Software
 
This thread is from 2006, they have either bought the right thing or got married and had 2 kids by now :facepalm:

Alan.
 
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