Converting Channel Inserts to Direct Outs?

C

Chief Pronto

New member
Hey there, I have a Behringer MX2004 that I got for extremely cheap and too good a deal for me to sell off at this point. So I want to keep the sucker.

The only problem I'm getting is that when I bought it, I thought it had 8 direct outs, but it turns out they're actually channel inserts. I figured I'd try it out with those, and before I learned about that "stick the cable in halfway" trick, I shoved the cable in fullway.

What happens is even with the mic gain all the way down, the signal sent to my computer is far too loud. Is that normal? Will sticking it in halfway reduce the gain at all? To me it doesn't make sense that with the gain all the way down to 0, the signal sent is clipping.

With the Behringer mixers that have direct outs, they are post-fader I believe, so the signal sent out has flown through the EQs and faders, but with mine, it's pre-fader. Is there a way to physically convert my 8 channel inserts into direct outs so I don't have to do the "halfway" trick? Not only do I want the signal to be trimmed when I trim it, but to have the EQ and faders etc have an affect on my signal would be beneficial...

EDIT: and with further reading on this forum, the official name for the trick I mention is the first-click trick. I know there are many threads on that already, but I was wondering if there was a way I could rip the mixer open, tinker around inside and physically convert the inserts to direct outs.
 
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I don't understand what you have against doing what you're calling the "halfway" trick. A channel insert is designed for a TRS cable, inserting a TS cable to the first click is simply engaging the output from the insert and not the return. Sticking a TS cable all the way in....I don't see how that can be working for you at all.
Anyway, if you want multiple outputs or busses, you should just try to get a mixer that has them. I can't imagine trying to rewire the internals to get the inserts to function like that. Perhaps if you were a whiz with electronics.

If you use the insert correctly as it is, you can still use the gain control to adjust the output level.
 
Well.... I AM a whiz with electronics. :D I have an electronics Engineering degree.

I converted a MX2004 a few years back in a way exactly how you describe.
Your inserts will become direct outs, post trim/EQ/Fader (pre mute).
I converted it for a friend and I know he doesn't use it any more. But he still does have it.

Give me a bit and I'll see if he'll let me take a look at how I did it. I can guarantee it requires soldering and you run the risk of destroying it if you don't know what to do.

I'll post pics and what to do.
 
I use the halfway trick, but you can also re-wire your cables so that you can plug them all the way in and not cut off the signal. Of course, I think everything would still be pre, but modifiying it yourself sounds tricky.
 
Not that this has to do with rewiring anything, but if you plug a TS cable in all the way, that's the same thing as plugging in a TRS cable to the first "click." So, if you do that, at least you don't have to worry about a bunch of cables getting ripped out because they're not fully plugged in.

How are you sending the signal from the behringer into the computer? What are you using as an interface? Using your inserts/direct outs are most likely sending out a +4dbu signal. If your computer interface is looking for a
-10dbu, that could explain why it's way too loud.

All insert patchs are usually pre-fader, as are most direct outs I've encountered, but I can't speak specifically for behringer boards. This is generally benificial because if you're mixing for a live venue for example, and then take a split from the direct outs to send to a recording device, you wouldn't want the EQ and main faders controllin the house to also affect the record feed.
 
tarnationsauce2 said:
Well.... I AM a whiz with electronics. :D I have an electronics Engineering degree.

I converted a MX2004 a few years back in a way exactly how you describe.
Your inserts will become direct outs, post trim/EQ/Fader (pre mute).
I converted it for a friend and I know he doesn't use it any more. But he still does have it.

Give me a bit and I'll see if he'll let me take a look at how I did it. I can guarantee it requires soldering and you run the risk of destroying it if you don't know what to do.

I'll post pics and what to do.
Click to expand...


that would be awesome if you could find it and throw up some pics/diagrams/walkthrough of this! i have no problems soldering - i have quite a bit of experience with it. did you see the post on the PDF too? :o

RAK said:
Not that this has to do with rewiring anything, but if you plug a TS cable in all the way, that's the same thing as plugging in a TRS cable to the first "click." So, if you do that, at least you don't have to worry about a bunch of cables getting ripped out because they're not fully plugged in.

How are you sending the signal from the behringer into the computer? What are you using as an interface? Using your inserts/direct outs are most likely sending out a +4dbu signal. If your computer interface is looking for a
-10dbu, that could explain why it's way too loud.

All insert patchs are usually pre-fader, as are most direct outs I've encountered, but I can't speak specifically for behringer boards. This is generally benificial because if you're mixing for a live venue for example, and then take a split from the direct outs to send to a recording device, you wouldn't want the EQ and main faders controllin the house to also affect the record feed.
Click to expand...

i'm using the Aardvark Aark 20/20 at my interface. And what you said about the +4/-10dbu thing really makes sense, but so far within the Aardvark Manager software, I can't find any options that I can select differently. I'll noodle around with that though.
 
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why dont you leave it as it is....get as much as you can for it.......go on ebay and get you a Mackie 16.8 bus and all your problems would be solved. no soldering. no sticking in halfway. easy routing. cause once you break into your behringer and modify it......it's your forever and you'll be stuck with a useless board.....be smart, spend the little extra money and get an interface and or a 8.buss board
 
scorpio01169 said:
why dont you leave it as it is....get as much as you can for it.......go on ebay and get you a Mackie 16.8 bus and all your problems would be solved. no soldering. no sticking in halfway. easy routing. cause once you break into your behringer and modify it......it's your forever and you'll be stuck with a useless board.....be smart, spend the little extra money and get an interface and or a 8.buss board
Click to expand...

i'm considering this. but i just tried it now with the first-click trick and it didn't really help anything. the gain on the mic is all the way down, and the signal is still clipping. I clap infront of the mic and it overloads. why would that be happening? i went into the software and it is set at -10dbu.
 
While inserts/direct outs are usually pre-fader, they should be post mic-pre gain stage. Unless I've got my own wires crossed, the mic gain should control the signal to the insert/direct out, so if you've got it all the way down, and it is clipping then I'm tempted to suggest something is not functioning as it should.

Specifically, how are you connecting the behringer to the aardvark? Just using TS (or TRS "first click") cables from the berhinger inserts into the line-inputs of the aardvark?

Also, I just did some searching the aardvark in the middle of writing this post. I found this review of the 20/20+ from electronic musician which I will link here, but I'll put in a direct quote which might have some bearing on your issue.

"For example, the Aark 20/20+ supports both balanced and unbalanced lines, whereas the previous version supports only unbalanced lines."

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_aardvark_aark_win/index.html

So if you have the earlier version, and you are using a TRS cable, I guess this could be the issue. Try using TS cables instead, if you're not already, and see what happens. However Balanced (TRS) and Unbalanced (TS) incombatability are not the same issue as +4/-10.
 
Chief Pronto said:
i'm considering this. but i just tried it now with the first-click trick and it didn't really help anything. the gain on the mic is all the way down, and the signal is still clipping. I clap infront of the mic and it overloads. why would that be happening? i went into the software and it is set at -10dbu.
Click to expand...


Can you switch the inputs in the software to +4? You're probably sending out a +4 signal from the behringer, so you want the aardvark to recieve a +4 signal as well, otherwise you're putting a much hotter signal (+4) than the Aardvark is currently looking for (-10)
 
RAK said:
While inserts/direct outs are usually pre-fader, they should be post mic-pre gain stage. Unless I've got my own wires crossed, the mic gain should control the signal to the insert/direct out, so if you've got it all the way down, and it is clipping then I'm tempted to suggest something is not functioning as it should.

Specifically, how are you connecting the behringer to the aardvark? Just using TS (or TRS "first click") cables from the berhinger inserts into the line-inputs of the aardvark?

Also, I just did some searching the aardvark in the middle of writing this post. I found this review of the 20/20+ from electronic musician which I will link here, but I'll put in a direct quote which might have some bearing on your issue.

"For example, the Aark 20/20+ supports both balanced and unbalanced lines, whereas the previous version supports only unbalanced lines."

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_aardvark_aark_win/index.html

So if you have the earlier version, and you are using a TRS cable, I guess this could be the issue. Try using TS cables instead, if you're not already, and see what happens. However Balanced (TRS) and Unbalanced (TS) incombatability are not the same issue as +4/-10.
Click to expand...

I'm connecting the Behringer to the Aardvark with TS cables "first click". And on the Aardvark it's like permanently set to -10..... I can't get it over to +4.
 
I've had a breakthrough - in regards to that +4/-10dbu issue, I opened the manual for my Aardvark, and it shows that there should be an I/O Levels tab in the software where I can set everything that I need to.... only, in my software, this tab is non-existant. And then I checked my software version, and it says it's version 1.0.0.1. This doesn't sound good to me - now it seems that I have to find a new version of this software.... any ideas where?
 
Chief Pronto said:
I'm connecting the Behringer to the Aardvark with TS cables "first click". And on the Aardvark it's like permanently set to -10..... I can't get it over to +4.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "first click" with a TS cable? If it's a TS (unbalanced) cable, there's only "1 click" so to speak, so the cable should be plugged in all the way.

I'm not at all familiar with Aardvark so I can't tell you where to find the update, but it does sound like that would help solve the problem if you can find it.
 
RAK said:
What do you mean by "first click" with a TS cable? If it's a TS (unbalanced) cable, there's only "1 click" so to speak, so the cable should be plugged in all the way.

I'm not at all familiar with Aardvark so I can't tell you where to find the update, but it does sound like that would help solve the problem if you can find it.
Click to expand...

with the TS cable, if I put it in all the way in the channel insert, my level meters cut out. so when I "first click" it with a TS cable, the singal still reaches the aardvark, and my level meters kick back in.

and I found a good place for aardvark drivers..... I still can't get anything to work, but at least I found the right group of people to help me out with it.
 
Chief Pronto said:
with the TS cable, if I put it in all the way in the channel insert, my level meters cut out. so when I "first click" it with a TS cable, the singal still reaches the aardvark, and my level meters kick back in.
QUOTE]

Sorry to get so basic here, but I want to make sure we're on the same page. So a TS cable has 2 sections, Tip and Sleeve. Sleeve is Ground (Pin 1 of XLR). Tip is Hot (Pin 2 of XLR).

An Insert Jack is wired for Tip/Ring/Sleeve plugs because it Sends on the Tip (Pin 2) and Returns on the Ring (Pin 3) (or is it the other way around?) And the Sleeve (Pin 1) is still Ground.

So if you want to use an Insert as a Direct Out (send only), you want to use a TS cable to Send on the Tip, and still have the Ground connected. So if you have a TS cable only plugged in to 1 click, then you're not connecting the Ground (or maybe you're not connecting the Tip). Either way I believe you've got an incomplete connection that is probably causing some problems.

With a Tip/Ring/Sleeve cable, if you plug in only 1 click, then you're bypassing the Ring, and you're still connected with the Ground and the Hot (send), which is how you can use a TRS cable as a Direct Out

This does interrupt the signal however, so if you want to get it back to your Behringer, you need to use your Aardvark ouputs to send back to the Behringer.
Click to expand...
 
RAK said:
Chief Pronto said:
with the TS cable, if I put it in all the way in the channel insert, my level meters cut out. so when I "first click" it with a TS cable, the singal still reaches the aardvark, and my level meters kick back in.
QUOTE]

Sorry to get so basic here, but I want to make sure we're on the same page. So a TS cable has 2 sections, Tip and Sleeve. Sleeve is Ground (Pin 1 of XLR). Tip is Hot (Pin 2 of XLR).

An Insert Jack is wired for Tip/Ring/Sleeve plugs because it Sends on the Tip (Pin 2) and Returns on the Ring (Pin 3) (or is it the other way around?) And the Sleeve (Pin 1) is still Ground.

So if you want to use an Insert as a Direct Out (send only), you want to use a TS cable to Send on the Tip, and still have the Ground connected. So if you have a TS cable only plugged in to 1 click, then you're not connecting the Ground (or maybe you're not connecting the Tip). Either way I believe you've got an incomplete connection that is probably causing some problems.

With a Tip/Ring/Sleeve cable, if you plug in only 1 click, then you're bypassing the Ring, and you're still connected with the Ground and the Hot (send), which is how you can use a TRS cable as a Direct Out

This does interrupt the signal however, so if you want to get it back to your Behringer, you need to use your Aardvark ouputs to send back to the Behringer.
Click to expand...


all I know at this point is that it's not a cable problem. with my TS cables, it pretty much didn't matter how I inserted them. The problem definitely lies in the fact that my mixer is sending out +4dbu, and my Aardvark is set to recieve -10dbu. All I have to do now is figure out how to get a new version of the software running in XP so that I can switch it. Like you said, the early versions did not support it - so my early version software didn't have the option to switch it. If I can get new software running that has the option, I'm golden.
Click to expand...
 
OK pronto, here you go! :cool:

Behringer MX2004A inserts to direct out modification.

This mod will convert the inserts into direct outputs that’s signal is post Gain / Equalizer / Fader. But Pre-Mute. :D

I cannot be held responsible if you ruin your board because of your electronics, mechanical, soldering, or any skill level or any accident. Do this at your own risk.

I cannot guarantee this will work with any other Behringer (or other brand) board.

======================

It’s a pretty simple mod I think…

Ok, take the thing apart with the screws on the sides and bottom (but don’t remove the 2 screws I have pointed out in the pic). Those screws hold the power filtering board, which will stay connected. So you’ll have to hinge the bottom off of the rest of the unit when you pull the bottom up.

Now pull the 16-pin plug from the back daughter board, and put wire jumpers in how you see in the pic. This completes the insert circuit we’re breaking. Use solid-core wire, probably 20 gauge or so.

Now run a wire from the points you see on the pics (the white wires).
One end of the wire connects directly to the 1/4" jack that is still connected to the daughter board as you see in the pics.
The other end connects down near the fader (we’re leaching the signal from the Aux send area). Also I should note that I did the Aux send pre-fader mod that is outlined in the Behringer manual. I don’t think this will have an effect on how my mod works. But it may if Behringer did not use a buffer amp for the Aux busses. I’m pretty sure they did though, since the main outputs take the signal from the same place as the block diagram. Not that block diagrams always show everything. But I digress…

Oh wait… there’s nothing to digress to! You’re done!

Unmodified diagram for reference.
Modified diagram.
Don't remove these screws.
Overview.
15-pin plug and jumpers.
Daughter board / 1/4" jack connection.
Main board connection.
 
tarnationsauce2 said:
OK pronto, here you go! :cool:

Behringer MX2004A inserts to direct out modification.

This mod will convert the inserts into direct outputs that’s signal is post Gain / Equalizer / Fader. But Pre-Mute. :D

I cannot be held responsible if you ruin your board because of your electronics, mechanical, soldering, or any skill level or any accident. Do this at your own risk.

I cannot guarantee this will work with any other Behringer (or other brand) board.

======================

It’s a pretty simple mod I think…

Ok, take the thing apart with the screws on the sides and bottom (but don’t remove the 2 screws I have pointed out in the pic). Those screws hold the power filtering board, which will stay connected. So you’ll have to hinge the bottom off of the rest of the unit when you pull the bottom up.

Now pull the 16-pin plug from the back daughter board, and put wire jumpers in how you see in the pic. This completes the insert circuit we’re breaking. Use solid-core wire, probably 20 gauge or so.

Now run a wire from the points you see on the pics (the white wires).
One end of the wire connects directly to the 1/4" jack that is still connected to the daughter board as you see in the pics.
The other end connects down near the fader (we’re leaching the signal from the Aux send area). Also I should note that I did the Aux send pre-fader mod that is outlined in the Behringer manual. I don’t think this will have an effect on how my mod works. But it may if Behringer did not use a buffer amp for the Aux busses. I’m pretty sure they did though, since the main outputs take the signal from the same place as the block diagram. Not that block diagrams always show everything. But I digress…

Oh wait… there’s nothing to digress to! You’re done!

Unmodified diagram for reference.
Modified diagram.
Don't remove these screws.
Overview.
15-pin plug and jumpers.
Daughter board / 1/4" jack connection.
Main board connection.
Click to expand...



holy crap dude.... THANKS A LOT!!! This will work out perfectly.

turns out, in the end, the problem is that my Aardvark is an old unit and only supports -10dbu. So my signal will always be hot. So with this mod, I can use the faders to trim the signal back a bit, and therefore keep my aardvark.
 
RAK said:
Chief Pronto said:
with the TS cable, if I put it in all the way in the channel insert, my level meters cut out. so when I "first click" it with a TS cable, the singal still reaches the aardvark, and my level meters kick back in.
QUOTE]

Sorry to get so basic here, but I want to make sure we're on the same page. So a TS cable has 2 sections, Tip and Sleeve. Sleeve is Ground (Pin 1 of XLR). Tip is Hot (Pin 2 of XLR).

An Insert Jack is wired for Tip/Ring/Sleeve plugs because it Sends on the Tip (Pin 2) and Returns on the Ring (Pin 3) (or is it the other way around?) And the Sleeve (Pin 1) is still Ground.

So if you want to use an Insert as a Direct Out (send only), you want to use a TS cable to Send on the Tip, and still have the Ground connected. So if you have a TS cable only plugged in to 1 click, then you're not connecting the Ground (or maybe you're not connecting the Tip). Either way I believe you've got an incomplete connection that is probably causing some problems.

With a Tip/Ring/Sleeve cable, if you plug in only 1 click, then you're bypassing the Ring, and you're still connected with the Ground and the Hot (send), which is how you can use a TRS cable as a Direct Out

This does interrupt the signal however, so if you want to get it back to your Behringer, you need to use your Aardvark ouputs to send back to the Behringer.
Click to expand...

The insert point is wired normally closed from tip to ring. Clicking "one click" connects the Tip of your cable (TS or TRS, doesn't matter) to the ring of the insert without breaking the normal. Since the insert point's tip is normalled to the ring, and your cable's tip is touching the ring, the insert point is sending signal from the tip through the ring and to the cable, and also to the mixer's channel via its standard signal path.

If you plug the cable in all the way, it breaks the normal from tip to ring in the insert point. Now, you're sending signal from the tip of the insert to the tip of the cable. However, since the normal is now broken, no signal is being sent to the ring of the insert point and, consequently, to the rest of the channel strip of the mixer.

Whether or not you're using TS or TRS cables is inconsequential. Either way, you're only using the Tip and Sleeve connectors, and the signal will always be unbalanced.
Click to expand...
 
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