Contemporary Worship Music

[Codmate]

It's amazing how differently people behave and talk when they dont have to look you in the eye! The monitor and keyboard can hide a lot....but not all.

I'm just as combative with the religious in real life.

It's the only way.
You can't pussy foot around - you have to slam the ridiculousness of it all right in their faces.

Sometimes, when the shock has settled they remember those questions that just won't go away...

 

[soundchaser59]

Believing this:

Unlike gravity, there is no experiment I can conduct by myself to show God exists.

is why you believe this:

How do we know of his existence - other than by the words of other people?

You want someone else to show you God, prove it to you, etc. Aint gonna happen.

Why does the organized Christian church fleece money out of people (tax free in the USA at that), when Christ advocated the opposite.

"Fleece" implies that it is by deception. Deception is in the eyes of the givers. If you feel deceived, then no one will get your money. And there is no "organized Christian church".... That is such a sweeping label, it is hopelessly vague and useless.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

All of which depends on your definition of "evil." Is there one single example of "evil" that does NOT involve human beings?? If you remove human beings from the equation, then "evil" ceases to exist. Some suggest that "evil" is not something that exists in its own right, but is rather a label that we use to define or describe the absence of something else. Just as "cold" does not exist per se, but is only a way to describe the absence of heat. There is no such thing as "dark," it is only a way to describe the absence of light. Perhaps "evil" is merely the absence of God? Absent from one's heart and mind and choices. God may be able and willing, but He would rather see us take it upon ourselves to prevent "evil" since all things "evil" come from man acting in the absence of God, not from God.

Free-will does not solve it - as God is not omnipotent if we have free will. If God can stop me doing something I don't have free will. The two things are mutually exclusive.

Rubbish. Mike Tyson can stop you from punching his face, but that doesn't mean you dont have the free will to try. If he lets you, that means he doesn't have the power over you? "Omnipotent" doesn't necessarily translate to "tyrannical dictator control freak" as your statement implies. Maybe another paradox is God having the power to control you, but choosing not to.

Well, God never left me any presents did he?

You have life, don't you?

I'm just as combative with the religious in real life.

It's the only way.
You can't pussy foot around - you have to slam the ridiculousness of it all right in their faces.

I hope I never have to meet you face to face. Yeah, you are scary, and extremely frustrating, and you do it well, very well rehearsed. Seems you enjoy being that way. Seems you enjoy expecting answers about God from everyone else, while never being willing to find them yourself. (no offense) Seems you prefer the argument and the fight, you prefer to "slam it in their faces," and if that is true you will never grasp "God".... I am most certainly powerless to help you in any way, not sure I would even if I knew how. With an attitude and mindset like that, no one will dare try..... You Win! Congratulations!

 

[Codmate]

Believing this:

is why you believe this:

You want someone else to show you God, prove it to you, etc. Aint gonna happen.

Well - what reason do I have to believe then?

If nobody can point to God and say "there you are", he's over here in the frozen fish section, then he's too immaterial for me.

"Fleece" implies that it is by deception. Deception is in the eyes of the givers. If you feel deceived, then no one will get your money. And there is no "organized Christian church".... That is such a sweeping label, it is hopelessly vague and useless.

God doesn't exist in my eyes - therefore I believe they are being fleeced.
It's my personal opinion.

I strongly believe that many heads of the organised religions don't really
believe in God.
I strongly believe that many folowers of the organised religions don't really believe in God, or have never really questioned what it is they subscribe to.

Religion is very similar to nationalism in this respect. When combined, these two horrible tendancies are lethal.

All of which depends on your definition of "evil." Is there one single example of "evil" that does NOT involve human beings?? If you remove human beings from the equation, then "evil" ceases to exist. Some suggest that "evil" is not something that exists in its own right, but is rather a label that we use to define or describe the absence of something else. Just as "cold" does not exist per se, but is only a way to describe the absence of heat. There is no such thing as "dark," it is only a way to describe the absence of light. Perhaps "evil" is merely the absence of God? Absent from one's heart and mind and choices. God may be able and willing, but He would rather see us take it upon ourselves to prevent "evil" since all things "evil" come from man acting in the absence of God, not from God.

So God isn't omnipotent, omnipresent and omnicient then?
So why call him God? - Epicurus

This is another reason I find the concept of Hell and Satan funny.
A 'good' omnipotent God wouldn't allow Satan to exist!

Volcanos, earthquakes, disease.
All these things are preventable by God, even if you think omnipotence and free will are not mutually exclusive.

I don't think I like God very much if he exists. After all - he regularly wipes out vast numbers of innocents and causes huge suffering for no reason whatsoever.

'Natural disasters' are in-fact responsible for far more suffering than man-made events.

...and one day the Sun will expand and turn the Earth into dust...

Rubbish. Mike Tyson can stop you from punching his face, but that doesn't mean you don't have the free will to try. If he lets you, that means he doesn't have the power over you? "Omnipotent" doesn't necessarily translate to "tyrannical dictator control freak" as your statement implies. Maybe another paradox is God having the power to control you, but choosing not to.

So God takes no responsibility for giving us free-will in the first place then?
He must have known what the consequences would be after all.

Since time is irrelevant to an omnipotent being you can't think of actions in the same way. All outcomes are pre-designated as it's all "part of God's plan". How then does free will work at all. Theologians have been working on this for centuries - but the truth is that Epicurus got it right thousands of years ago. An omnipotent being has to take responsibility for everything that happens. That includes all the evil people do, and all the suffering caused by natural disasters.

Why would a five year old girl get Leukaemia?
To 'test' her parents faith?
Sick.

You have life, don't you?

That's proof of my parents' existence.

Did you know that just a hundred years ago, people thought that mice spontaneously 'grew' in old clothes, and that maggots 'came from' rotting meat? They didn't realise that many other creatures had 'parents'.

Soon human understanding will come to the point where we realise we never had a great 'parent' in the sky, who spontaneously appeared.

I hope I never have to meet you face to face. Yeah, you are scary, and extremely frustrating, and you do it well, very well rehearsed. Seems you enjoy being that way. Seems you enjoy expecting answers about God from everyone else, while never being willing to find them yourself. (no offense) Seems you prefer the argument and the fight, you prefer to "slam it in their faces," and if that is true you will never grasp "God".... I am most certainly powerless to help you in any way, not sure I would even if I knew how. With an attitude and mindset like that, no one will dare try..... You Win! Congratulations!

Yes - I generally win these arguments, I wonder why that is?
Peoples' anger soon rises when they have no logical answer to these questions.

I've looked high and low for good counter arguments.
There are some really beautiful arguments in favour of God that you haven't
brought to bear. My favourite is the ontological argument:

"
1. God is the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived.
2. The concept of God exists in human understanding.
3. God does not exist in reality (assumed in order to refute).
4. The concept of God existing in reality exists in human understanding.
5. If an entity exists in reality and in human understanding, this entity is greater than it would have been if it existed only in human understanding (a statement of existence as a perfection).
6. from 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 An entity can be conceived which is greater than God, the entity than which no greater entity can be conceived (logical self-contradiction).
7. Assumption 3 is wrong, therefore God exists in reality (assuming 1, 2, 4, and 5 are accepted as true).
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument

It's totally circular of course - but quite wonderful in an artistic sort of way.

You see - we can have some fun if you have done some theology and philosophy.

At the end of the day, any theist, no matter how intelligent, has to admit that it comes down to blind faith.

The whole thing rests on how empirical you are as a person.
I'm the type of guy that likes to get inside things and know how they work.
I take things apart and put them back together for fun. I rarely buy electronic things off the shelf, preferring to make my own.

This means I know that certain things 'work'. They are consistent and work every time if you get the parameters right. Blind faith is a totally alien concept to me - and has been since I was a child really.

They tried to indoctrinate me into the Baptist church.
As a young child I vividly remember seeing somebody baptised and wanting to have it done to myself...
Not for any spiritual reasons though - I didn't understand these things at the time...

I can see how people get sucked in by the vast cultural pressure however.
The church full of people watching and approving... Congratulating the newly baptised... It's a terribly strong cultural affirmation.
Ceremony is also a very very strong thing. The desire for continuity... The natural human dualistic nature... So many things call us to believe in 'something' beyond our experience...

I've witnessed people speaking in tongues, fainting, being 'healed' etc etc.
Nothing that magician/hypnotist Derren Brown couldn't reproduce, but fascinating nonetheless.

I argue about these things, mainly, to get good counter arguments to explore.
As you can see - I have a rather rabid interest in the subject of religion, as well as the philosophy and history of religion.

BTW - I wouldn't say anybody who believed in God was stupid.
I've met many many intelligent believers.
But still nobody who could defeat Epicurus, or explain how omnipotence could work, or explain why the universe needs a 'purpose'.

As you can see - I could go on about this all day - which is why I was reluctant to at first - and pointed to the Richard Dawkins message board.

If you will argue with me though - then I will.
I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to religion.

I really suggest you go here though - where there is a high standard of debate:
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/

I suspect nobody will though.

 

[Ed Dixon]

Well - what reason do I have to believe then?

Some interesting viewpoints.

Perhaps a question might be in order. What do you believe in?

You commented that you don’t believe that many heads of organized religion believe in God. What is the basis of this belief? Do you know them? Have you followed them around for a day to see what their life is like? Have you set down and had a face to face with them?

Ed

 

[johnny5dm]

I'm going to chime in one last time.

Codmate - you're right, you can't "prove" God exists. In the same vein, you can't prove he doesn't, or else YOU would be God. There is and always will be a measure of faith involved. If you're interested in considering the option that faith is part of it, then we have a bit of a starting point to go with.

In light of that, some of your points I can answer analytically and logically; some I cannot. I will certainly admit that I don't know everything about God and his reasons - what kind of god would he be if I did?

If you're willing to consider faith as an option at all, we can continue discussing, but I believe we are at an impass, and I suggest that we abandon this discussion and go talk about microphones or something where we can bicker about which Studio Projects mic sounds like a C414.

Oh, and I read some on Richard Dawkins' site. If that were truly a "neutral" forum for discussing these topics, I'd be open to going there. However, it's not, so I really don't have any desire to go start more endless debates.

May you find what it is that you're looking for, or if you've already found it, may it make you content, happy and fulfilled.

-Jon

 

[soundchaser59]

I have made a choice, and I am trying to learn to dismiss the debate......precisely for the reasons you mention. It is a hopeless circle, and only faith can bring you the answers. Discard faith, discard any hope of finding answers.

I have never met an atheist who wanted anything more than a fight and another chance to refute God. I have never met an atheist who wasn't angry about something in his or her past. You fall back on Epicurus. Go for it man. I say one of the best reasons to believe in God is the fact that atheism exists, the fact that soooo many atheists expend sooooo much time and effort arguing against something that they claim doesnt' even exist. If God really did not exist, there would be no such thing as atheism. Surely, people would not spend half the time and energy they do looking for ways to refute it. It just wouldn't be that important to refute it, like refuting Santa Claus. The fact that you expend soo much energy arguing against God proves, in my estimation, that you are not convinced that God is a lie. You are really trying to convince yourself as much as anyone else. You dont WANT God to exist. Too many things you are comfortable with, even if some of those things are not so good, would have to change if you started believing in God. Any competent psychologist can tell you that human nature is to choose the familiar over the unknown, even if the familiar is hopelessly unpleasant. If God really did not exist, all the elaborate philosophy and atheistic gymnastics would not exist either. It would all be completely useless.

I think the ultimate sign of God's omnipotence is the fact that there is no proof. The lack of proof is by design. I say perfect omnipotence necessarily includes allowing man free will. If there was one single shred of proof of God's existence, then man would be compelled to believe, and that is when free will goes out the window. We all know that love is antithetical to being compelled. Bonnie Raitt sang "I cant make you love me." No one knows this better than God. It is not true love if you do not freely choose to have faith in your partner and stick around of your own sincere volition. The only way to find out if a mate is sincere is to let him or her go, and allow that person to decide for himself to believe in your love and have faith in you. No one understands this fundamental truth better than God.

No one can prove anything to you except you and God. It's interesting that you are so eager to blame God for all the bad things in life, in order to refute His existence. But what of all the good things then?? Something bad happens, blame God? Something good happens, credit.....who? Man?? Dont dare use any good things in life to suggest that maybe God might be real. Yeah, 5 year old girls get leukemia, they suffer, they go to heaven. Other people learn from it, usually because it's the only thing that can crack thru the shell and reach their hearts. Mortal man sees it as cruel and unusual. God sees it differently. If God doesn't see it as cruel and unusual, doesn't see it the same way we see it, then there must be something wrong with God?? Man's perspective is the ultimate yardstick?? Is man's ego really that important?

It's interesting that you dont consider your own life to be a gift. Are you really so eager to take your own life for granted? You dont see your own existence as a miracle? To me, that is profoundly myopic.

Yeah, it is infinitely easier to deny God and make arguments against God. I know cuz I used to say all the same things you are saying. You're not telling me anything new. I'm certainly not telling you anything, new or otherwise. I am learning the hard way that atheists do not want answers, they want affirmation. You dont want God to exist. I have to quit wanting to show you God. I cant do it, you're right. If your definition of "winning" fits that, then you win. Have another beer and enjoy the company of all the other atheists. There are plenty of people out there who dont' want God to exist. You wont ever be lonely!

Now......why did this end up in the guitar forum? and where is that SP C1 vs C414 debate??

 

[fraserhutch]

That's absolute BS. I had to chime in here.


BS #1:

I have never met an atheist who wanted anything more than a fight and another chance to refute God. I have never met an atheist who wasn't angry about something in his or her past.

I'm an aetheist or at least an agnostic. I really don't care. BUT, I am not angry, nor do I feel the need to shove my beliefs down anyone's throats. I don't feel the need to prove to others that god doesn't exist. Hence why I resent when the same consideration isn't accorded me.

BS #2:

If God really did not exist, there would be no such thing as atheism.

Sophomoric logic, not even worthy of a rebuttal. Man, can you seriously believe this? Or is it just another hallmark witticism you picked up? It means NOTHING MORE THAN THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN A 'GOD', which does NOT depend on you believing in one to be. If you did not believe, we merely wouldn't have a label for it because there would be no need.

This is the silliest statement bar NONE I have ever heard. I am truly astounded.

 

[apl]

I have never met an atheist who wanted anything more than a fight and another chance to refute God. I have never met an atheist who wasn't angry about something in his or her past.

Well, it may be that you've met a lot of atheists but you didn't know they were atheists because they didn't have those chips on their shoulders.

 

[rory]

The whole debate about Satan as a literal person is an interesting one. Many scholars even can't decide on what, who, where, and how he/it is. We normally think of Satan and Hell through Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise Lost. These, however, are considered fictional and may have very little "historical" or "biblical" basis.

Many people agree that Hell is simply the absence of God. You may ask, If he built/created everything, how can you be apart, or something like that. From some of the people I've talked to, they believe that most of God's "meaness" or "bastardy" (you like that word?) relates to how he (God) himself feels and is his attempt to help us understand. Again, I don't necessarily think this way, but do find it interesting and it may account for many things that might have happened in the Bible.

 

[Double]

Yeah, 5 year old girls get leukemia, they suffer, they go to heaven.

Sorry SC not to knit pick your argument but not all organized religions believe that. Some of the oldest organized religions believe you have to ask for forgiveness first, some get the chance during their short life time, some don’t. Other religions want you to believe that God had a son, some don’t. They all can’t be right

 

[rory]

Sorry SC not to knit pick your argument but not all organized religions believe that. Some of the oldest organized religions believe you have to ask for forgiveness first, some get the chance during their short life time, some don’t. Other religions want you to believe that God had a son, some don’t. They all can’t all be right

Original sin, no original sin? There are so many debates to be had!

 

[soundchaser59]

BUT, I am not angry, nor do I feel the need to shove my beliefs down anyone's throats. I don't feel the need to prove to others that god doesn't exist.

And I have never met you, probably never will. I was referring to the atheists I have actually met who felt a compelling need to let me know why they are atheist, after they asked me about my own beliefs and couldn't quietly accept the fact that I believe in something they dont want. Like apl suggests, maybe there are more who dont have chips on their shoulders, and I have not met their atheism. Maybe it's only the angry atheists who feel compelled to advertise their atheism to the world. I dont know.

Sophomoric logic, not even worthy of a rebuttal. Man, can you seriously believe this? Or is it just another hallmark witticism you picked up? It means NOTHING MORE THAN THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN A 'GOD', which does NOT depend on you believing in one to be. If you did not believe, we merely wouldn't have a label for it because there would be no need.

This is the silliest statement bar NONE I have ever heard. I am truly astounded.

A good paradox has that effect on people. Yes, I believe that atheism would not exist if God did not exist. Is it not worthy of rebuttal? Or you just dont have a rebuttal handy right now? Or is it just another point that cannot be rebutted?? Your use of the term "sophomoric" implies that there is some larger, more mature truth to reveal here. What truth would that be? If it cant be proven, then it is sophomoric? No matter how catchy that term is in atheist circles, it is not a good fit to describe my claim. Prove that atheism would exist whether there is God or not. If you cant prove it, then am I going to say you are "sophomoric"?? No. Like the believers, not one atheist can prove his own point, but the believers are ridiculed and dismissed as stupid fools for believing in something they cant prove. I'm just as guilty, no matter how hard I try to state my points casually and matter of fact, without judgment or prejudice. Many believers treat atheists as fools, just as many atheists treat believers as fools. They are not, I am not, you are not. You choose your beliefs that cannot be substantiated, I choose mine.

One of the most difficult things I have ever had to learn in my entire life is that a true atheist probably would never get involved in a debate like this, would never volunteer his stance on the subject without being asked. But that is just my uninformed opinion, since - according to that standard - I have never knowingly met a "true" atheist. All of my experience has been that the ones who do easily volunteer their atheism do not want answers or persuasion or insight, as much as they just like the argument and the conflict and the confrontation and the rush of the hostility that usually surrounds the debate. It is also very difficult for me to learn that just because someone posts a thread like this it does not mean everyone is interested in my opinion on it. I have never succeeded in changing anyone's mind on the topic. Never will. Why do I keep sharing my views, then?? I dont know. Maybe it only helps me define my beliefs in my own heart. If that is true, then I should be thankful for the opinions here.

Apparently, it is also very difficult for the average atheist to learn that when person A asks person B about his belief in God, that does not constitute an open invitation for atheist C to volunteer and impose his atheism on the conversation. That has happened to me countless times as well.

Maybe the real fundamental difference with me is simply that I WANT God to exist. Part of the reason I enjoy believing in God is simply because you cant. I dont care if there is no proof to show or touch or dissect under a microscope. I choose to believe that it is an accomplishment simply having faith in God where others are completely baffled by it. It's so easy it's hard, and now, 30 years later, I cant believe I spent so much time and energy and life questioning it. I've seen the science, I've read books and listened to atheist debates ad nauseum, I've seen the endless name calling and mud slinging from both sides, etc.etc.etc...... I am crazy, because the more the atheists argue that I cant possibly believe in God, the more I enjoy believing in God. If you cant, or you dont know how, or you simply dont want to, whatever it is, ok. I'm not doing you any good. Pardon me, please.

Have you done a good job of making me want to stay out of these types of "debates"?? Yup. Do I think atheists are being foolish regarding this topic? Yup. Do you think I'm a blind fool? Yup. So be it, Jedi.

Thank You for helping me learn what I need to learn. It's a very difficult lesson, which I may have to repeat before I get it right. Maybe that's why this thread is here......

 

[fraserhutch]

It is not a paradox. It is faulty logic.

Atheism is NOT the polar opposite of theism, which is what you are alluding to. It is the ABSENCE of something. The absence of something is still an absence in the absence of what it is an absence of. The ONLY thing it would change is the requirement of a label.

Atheism SIMPLY MEANS the absence of a belief in a god. What is there to prove? It is a disbelief in the existence of any deities. It exists OUTSIDE of the any other requisites.

It is NOT the denial of theism, which is what you are getting at.

Incidentally, sophomorism has NOTHING to do with any "deeper truths", is is, from wikipedia: "conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature". The term I really meant to use(my bad) was "sophistic".

And finally, where, anywhere, did I disparage your belief? Where did I call you a 'blind fool'?

The thing I really hate is that, as much as persons such as yourself want respect for your choice to believe" (which I have always accorded), you will not extend the same respect to my disbelief.


Anyways, I'm done. I am not trying to convince anyone either way. Just accord my beliefs the same respoect you would have me accord yours.

A good paradox has that effect on people. Yes, I believe that atheism would not exist if God did not exist. Is it not worthy of rebuttal? Or you just dont have a rebuttal handy right now? Or is it just another point that cannot be rebutted?? Your use of the term "sophomoric" implies that there is some larger, more mature truth to reveal here. What truth would that be? If it cant be proven, then it is sophomoric? No matter how catchy that term is in atheist circles, it is not a good fit to describe my claim. Prove that atheism would exist whether there is God or not. If you cant prove it, then am I going to say you are "sophomoric"?? No. Like the believers, not one atheist can prove his own point, but the believers are ridiculed and dismissed as stupid fools for believing in something they cant prove. I'm just as guilty, no matter how hard I try to state my points casually and matter of fact, without judgment or prejudice. Many believers treat atheists as fools, just as many atheists treat believers as fools. They are not, I am not, you are not. You choose your beliefs that cannot be substantiated, I choose mine.

One of the most difficult things I have ever had to learn in my entire life is that a true atheist probably would never get involved in a debate like this, would never volunteer his stance on the subject without being asked. But that is just my uninformed opinion, since - according to that standard - I have never knowingly met a "true" atheist. All of my experience has been that the ones who do easily volunteer their atheism do not want answers or persuasion or insight, as much as they just like the argument and the conflict and the confrontation and the rush of the hostility that usually surrounds the debate. It is also very difficult for me to learn that just because someone posts a thread like this it does not mean everyone is interested in my opinion on it. I have never succeeded in changing anyone's mind on the topic. Never will. Why do I keep sharing my views, then?? I dont know. Maybe it only helps me define my beliefs in my own heart. If that is true, then I should be thankful for the opinions here.

Apparently, it is also very difficult for the average atheist to learn that when person A asks person B about his belief in God, that does not constitute an open invitation for atheist C to volunteer and impose his atheism on the conversation. That has happened to me countless times as well.

Maybe the real fundamental difference with me is simply that I WANT God to exist. Part of the reason I enjoy believing in God is simply because you cant. I dont care if there is no proof to show or touch or dissect under a microscope. I choose to believe that it is an accomplishment simply having faith in God where others are completely baffled by it. It's so easy it's hard, and now, 30 years later, I cant believe I spent so much time and energy and life questioning it. I've seen the science, I've read books and listened to atheist debates ad nauseum, I've seen the endless name calling and mud slinging from both sides, etc.etc.etc...... I am crazy, because the more the atheists argue that I cant possibly believe in God, the more I enjoy believing in God. If you cant, or you dont know how, or you simply dont want to, whatever it is, ok. I'm not doing you any good. Pardon me, please.

Have you done a good job of making me want to stay out of these types of "debates"?? Yup. Do I think atheists are being foolish regarding this topic? Yup. Do you think I'm a blind fool? Yup. So be it, Jedi.

Thank You for helping me learn what I need to learn. It's a very difficult lesson, which I may have to repeat before I get it right. Maybe that's why this thread is here......

 

[omtayslick]

Was there a guy named Larry Norman? For some reason that's what's coming to mind. Keith Green doesn't ring a bell.

Yes, it was Larry Norman, who is also known as "the father of Christian rock".
He had a song titled "Why should the devil have all the good music?".

But my favorite quote from him is from an interview in which he was asked "do you believe that heavy metal music is bad?"

And he replied "Yes, heavy metal music IS bad............ (long pause...), but it could be better if they'd practice."

 

[Codmate]

I'm going to chime in one last time.

Codmate - you're right, you can't "prove" God exists. In the same vein, you can't prove he doesn't,

Of course not - it is impossible to prove a negative.

Try and prove that I don't breed invisible elephants in my garden.

or else YOU would be God. There is and always will be a measure of faith involved. If you're interested in considering the option that faith is part of it, then we have a bit of a starting point to go with.

In light of that, some of your points I can answer analytically and logically; some I cannot. I will certainly admit that I don't know everything about God and his reasons - what kind of god would he be if I did?

If you're willing to consider faith as an option at all

I don't take anything on faith unless I trust the authority behind the statement - so there's a big stumbling block for you right there.

Why should I 'just believe'?

, we can continue discussing, but I believe we are at an impass, and I suggest that we abandon this discussion and go talk about microphones or something where we can bicker about which Studio Projects mic sounds like a C414.

Oh, and I read some on Richard Dawkins' site. If that were truly a "neutral" forum for discussing these topics, I'd be open to going there. However, it's not, so I really don't have any desire to go start more endless debates.

Of course it's not 'neutral' to you. It's rational - which appears as neutral to me however as I do not have the irrational conviction of blind faith.

May you find what it is that you're looking for, or if you've already found it, may it make you content, happy and fulfilled.

-Jon

I have - it's the guitar, music and the people I love in my life.
I need no more.

If a deity sends me to hell simply for not believing in him, when there is no proof, then, well. He hasn't really given me a fair chance has he?

It's a bit of an unfair game IMO, so I'm not playing.

 

[Codmate]

I have made a choice, and I am trying to learn to dismiss the debate......precisely for the reasons you mention. It is a hopeless circle, and only faith can bring you the answers. Discard faith, discard any hope of finding answers.

I have never met an atheist who wanted anything more than a fight and another chance to refute God.

I don't class myself as an atheist as that presupposes there is something so 'not believe in'.

Do people go around calling themselves amagicists because they don't believe in magic?

I simply state my case. I don't give it a label.

I have never met an atheist who wasn't angry about something in his or her past. You fall back on Epicurus. Go for it man. I say one of the best reasons to believe in God is the fact that atheism exists, the fact that soooo many atheists expend sooooo much time and effort arguing against something that they claim doesnt' even exist. If God really did not exist, there would be no such thing as atheism.

Wow - so if Astrology wasn't real there wouldn't be people that argue against it fervently?

I argue fervently against many forms of irrational belief, such as Astrology - so is that all true too?

And yeah - I'm pretty pissed off about being forced to sing hymns in school and go to church when I was younger - what a waste of time.

Surely, people would not spend half the time and energy they do looking for ways to refute it. It just wouldn't be that important to refute it, like refuting Santa Claus.

I can give you many reasons to refute and despise religion.
Here's a good one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jybeqE2QYQ&mode=related&search=
And how about 9/11... 7/7... The Crusades...
And simply because it breeds indoctrination and irrational wrong-thinking.
If the Catholic church had had their way we would still believe the Sun went around the Earth. Most religions are necessarily backward as they are usually based on ancient texts from a totally different society and culture.

I'm posting this after just reading this news item.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6266399.stm

He wrote of being admitted "to the highest station in paradise", Mr Sweeney said.

To any rational person - that is utterly chilling.

The fact that you expend soo much energy arguing against God proves, in my estimation, that you are not convinced that God is a lie.

No - I'm primarily responding to the incredibly patronizing and offensive "I'll pray for you" comment - which got my back up severely.

The religious think they can spout their beliefs without any consequences. Walking around proclaiming they are 'saved' and the rest of us are all somehow inferior.
Well get this, some of us are fighting back!

You are really trying to convince yourself as much as anyone else. You dont WANT God to exist.

Wrong again. I would love it all to be true, to the extent that I would like there to be punishments for the evil, and rewards for the good. Unfortunately it's simply irrational to believe in it, so I don't.

Too many things you are comfortable with, even if some of those things are not so good, would have to change if you started believing in God. Any competent psychologist can tell you that human nature is to choose the familiar over the unknown, even if the familiar is hopelessly unpleasant. If God really did not exist, all the elaborate philosophy and atheistic gymnastics would not exist either. It would all be completely useless.

I'll correct that.

"If religion really did not exist, all the elaborate philosophy and atheistic gymnastics would not exist either. It would all be completely useless.

I think the ultimate sign of God's omnipotence is the fact that there is no proof.

This is also a great argument for my invisible elephant breeding. I have to keep them secret or they run away!
Also - if you cease to believe in them they become angry and trample your soul when you die (or something equivalent to the idea of hell)!

The lack of proof is by design. I say perfect omnipotence necessarily includes allowing man free will.

Saying - "I say this" proves nothing.
You're not even approaching the argument.
Can you really not see the paradox here?
Either God is omnipotent and therefore responsible for *everything*, or he is not.
It cannot work any other way!

If there was one single shred of proof of God's existence, then man would be compelled to believe, and that is when free will goes out the window. We all know that love is antithetical to being compelled. Bonnie Raitt sang "I cant make you love me." No one knows this better than God. It is not true love if you do not freely choose to have faith in your partner and stick around of your own sincere volition. The only way to find out if a mate is sincere is to let him or her go, and allow that person to decide for himself to believe in your love and have faith in you. No one understands this fundamental truth better than God.

No one can prove anything to you except you and God. It's interesting that you are so eager to blame God for all the bad things in life, in order to refute His existence. But what of all the good things then?? Something bad happens, blame God? Something good happens, credit.....who?

Maybe you should credit human nature for once, rather than letting God get all the glory eh?
I believe goodness comes from people.
Any other sort of goodness - well, it's fate or luck, or chance, or any number of other things - or whatever you want to call it! Why does it always have to come back to this idea of an all-powerful deity?

Man?? Dont dare use any good things in life to suggest that maybe God might be real. Yeah, 5 year old girls get leukemia, they suffer, they go to heaven.

Do you realize how sick this sounds?
So all that suffering is OK?
Heaven solves everything - just like for the 9/11 plane hi-jackers.

Great - just great

Other people learn from it, usually because it's the only thing that can crack thru the shell and reach their hearts. Mortal man sees it as cruel and unusual. God sees it differently. If God doesn't see it as cruel and unusual, doesn't see it the same way we see it, then there must be something wrong with God?? Man's perspective is the ultimate yardstick?? Is man's ego really that important?

So why did God let that girl, who has done nothing wrong, and whose parents may well have led perfectly moral lives, suffer horribly and die? For some kind of sick lesson?

I really don't like God very much at all. In fact he sounds pretty malevolent to me.

If somebody injected a friend of yours with the HIV virus would you thank them for the wonderful 'test'?
Then why thank and praise God?
I'm actually feeling physically ill at this point.

It's interesting that you dont consider your own life to be a gift. Are you really so eager to take your own life for granted? You dont see your own existence as a miracle? To me, that is profoundly myopic.

Of course I see my own existence as incredible and amazing.
My consciousness even more so!
I feel an amazing sense of awe at the universe and the fact that anything exists at all!
I sometimes feel what the religious might call 'rapture' just contemplating the atom, or a tree.

I don't see it as a 'miracle' though. Why do you need to invoke a creator to have these feelings of awe and wonder?

Yeah, it is infinitely easier to deny God and make arguments against God. I know cuz I used to say all the same things you are saying. You're not telling me anything new. I'm certainly not telling you anything, new or otherwise. I am learning the hard way that atheists do not want answers, they want affirmation. You dont want God to exist.I have to quit wanting to show you God. I cant do it, you're right. If your definition of "winning" fits that, then you win. Have another beer and enjoy the company of all the other atheists. There are plenty of people out there who dont' want God to exist. You wont ever be lonely!

Now......why did this end up in the guitar forum? and where is that SP C1 vs C414 debate??

Maybe you're right about atheists - but people who I would simply call 'rational thinkers', or maybe 'rationalists', if you're desperate to have an 'ists' word, really just don't care about God. What we do care about is the evil that is done in God's name.

You can have your belief and follow whatever ceremonies you like - just don't harm anybody else while you do it, and don't indoctrinate your children. Let them make up their own minds based on the facts when they are old enough.

A very basic part of me would love to believe that there is some great protector out there, and that the good get rewarded and the bad get punished.

As far as I can see, there is no good reason to believe in it though. It is quite simply irrational and no more than a fairy story to my mind.

Oh - and this is a fun link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bN2aH0S0iU

 

[Big Kenny]

Your points make absolutely no sense man. You can prove nothing and we of faith don't have to. Now go so something good and see how it feels.
God Bless you, man.

 

[Codmate]

Your points make absolutely no sense man. You can prove nothing and we of faith don't have to. Now go so something good and see how it feels.
God Bless you, man.

This is the kind of piety that drives me up the wall frankly.

Are you saying that I never do anything good?
Are you implying that you're somehow morally superior?

If my points make no sense, why don't you devastate them with insight, logic and philosophical acumen?

Good things feel good for complex sociological and anthropological reasons - not because some deity says so.

The 9/11 bombers thought they were doing 'good' and thought they would go to heaven for it.

Chimps do 'good' things for each other.
'Good' has been around a lot longer than God...

 

[fraserhutch]

Your points make absolutely no sense man. You can prove nothing and we of faith don't have to.

Actually, it's the reverse that is true.

Now go so something good and see how it feels.
God Bless you, man.

Now THAT smacks of the moral superiority I personally detest.
I do plenty of good on my own.

Don't bless us - take your bullshit peity elsewhere.

You know, if I have to meet up with THAT shit in heaven, I'll take hell anyday.

 

[Cyrokk]

You know, if I have to meet up with THAT shit in heaven, I'll take hell anyday.

You should hang out in the "Contemporary Devil Worship Music" thread. Two pages so far and not a whole lot of conflict.