Contemporary Worship Music

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Codmate said:
Would 9/11 have happened if those guys didn't believe in heaven?

I know what you mean; it kinda makes you miss the old USSR, doesn't it?

I find it interesting that part of our response to Muslim fanaticism is a surge in what some would call Christian fanaticism. One thing they have in common is the belief that once you die, things get better for you.
 
cephus said:
I just think that, unfortunately, the guys that are doing it have very obviously failed to make it in mainstream music and see it (CC) as a leg-up to a (music) career.

I was thinking about this today and The Wiggles immediately spring to mind. They tried to be AC/DC, Little River Band, or Men at Work and failed, so they dreamed up this Captain Feathersword excrement.
 
I tend to float somewhere on side with you, Codmate in that Religion today is nothing like Jesus or his followers originally wanted and perhaps there is no fundamental power underlying human existance, it was all just chance or luck or darwinism or whatever; however, philosophically speaking you have a very difficult time DISproving God. Just one argument for an example, I'm sure you've heard it, the Clock Maker analogy. A clock maker (and I mean those really nice ones with tons and tons of parts inside) has to put everything together just right in order for the clock to work, tell time, be accurate, etc. I'm sure you know where this is going. God (or whatever power you want to call it) is the universe maker in that it is too complex (so the argument goes) to have happened by mere chance and allignment that SOMETHING had to have made it. Again, I disagree, but I don't think I can disprove a "God", especially to those who believe in him/it/her/whatever.
 
rory said:
I tend to float somewhere on side with you, Codmate in that Religion today is nothing like Jesus or his followers originally wanted

That’s actually an interesting question. Since no one alive today every talked to Jesus, all we have to go on is what is written. That, in turn, is interpreted by each church group and used as some part of the basis of their beliefs.

These beliefs vary considerably by group. Some discount Jesus altogether while others have him as their central focus.

My own belief is that Jesus would find considerable favor in the efforts of many Christian churches today and less than good favor with some.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:
My own belief is that Jesus would find considerable favor in the efforts of many Christian churches today.

Ed

And it is my hope that he'd feel the same way about some people independent of whether or not they participate in an organized religion.
 
rory said:
I tend to float somewhere on side with you, Codmate in that Religion today is nothing like Jesus or his followers originally wanted and perhaps there is no fundamental power underlying human existance, it was all just chance or luck or darwinism or whatever; however, philosophically speaking you have a very difficult time DISproving God. Just one argument for an example, I'm sure you've heard it, the Clock Maker analogy. A clock maker (and I mean those really nice ones with tons and tons of parts inside) has to put everything together just right in order for the clock to work, tell time, be accurate, etc. I'm sure you know where this is going. God (or whatever power you want to call it) is the universe maker in that it is too complex (so the argument goes) to have happened by mere chance and allignment that SOMETHING had to have made it. Again, I disagree, but I don't think I can disprove a "God", especially to those who believe in him/it/her/whatever.

This is actually a very good synopsis of the theme in "Case For The Creator." As near as I can tell, Stroble presents the arguments without religious bias and without quoting any scripture. All he does is interview top scientists alive today and ask them to discuss the pros and cons of believing in "Intelligent Design" vs believing in what amounts to macro-evolution. It is very compelling when you look at it from the perspective of the "clock maker" analogy, especially if you accept the varied assertions in the book regarding the fragile and pockmarked framework that claims to "support" theories surrounding macro evolution. What is the "chance" or the "probability" that the finely tuned and hand crafted Swiss watch could have come into existence by accident or by random environmental mechanisms?? It's the same thing. If one believes that the entire finely tuned universe could happen by accident and chance, then one must also believe that something infintely less complicated (like the Swiss watch) could also happen by random chance and accident. Put it the other way: If you look at something as relatively simple and unsophisticated as a Swiss watch and you say it obviously shows signs of "an intelligent mind, an intelligent designer," how can you then look at the universe in its finely tuned and relatively infinite complexity and convoluted sophistication and say that there are no signs whatsoever of any "intelligent mind" at work here??

On the other hand, part of the opposing argument is that evolutionary "science" has never produced one single experiment to demonstrate how even the simplest amino acids can form by accident or by chance in some "primordial soup".....and it is an almost incomprehensible quantum leap in biological theory to go from simple amino acids to simple single celled organisms with simple dna strands in their nucleus. Then to go from there to all of the variegated life on earth, including human dna and the human brain?? To all of the finely tuned "accidents" that make the universe function and allow this planet and it's life to exist at all?? All by random chance and accident and "natural selection"?? It's ok to casually believe that all of this happened by chance? Because it's "good, hard science??" But I'm silly and stupid if I accept the notion of "intelligent design" as being at least equally plausible?? Yup, no contradiction there, mates..... :confused:

I have made a personal choice to believe that none of this could have happened by chance, as many macro evolution theories would claim. I am frankly absolutely tickled by the idea that the universe is waaaaay toooo perfectly tuned to have "evolved" by chance or accident. In the end, that inner personal choice is all any of us will ever have to go on. No one will ever prove or disprove God or No God or intelligent design - or evolution - one way or the other. There is no proof, and I believe the absence of proof is by design. It's the only way to guarantee that no one is compelled, but rather each one makes a sincere and pure choice to have faith......or not.

The only "proof" anyone will ever have is the effect that the choice has on your own life and the lives of those who come in contact with you. You can call it a "convenient explanation" if you like, but it has the advantage of also being a "convenient truth." If you are waiting for someone else to "prove it" to you, you will be waiting a long, long time..... If you want a pile of laughs while you wait, then read Stroble's book.
 
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Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find my self in - an interesting hole I find my self in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears caches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

- Douglas Adams, 1952-2001
 
Ed Dixon said:
That’s actually an interesting question. Since no one alive today every talked to Jesus, all we have to go on is what is written. That, in turn, is interpreted by each church group and used as some part of the basis of their beliefs.

These beliefs vary considerably by group. Some discount Jesus altogether while others have him as their central focus.

My own belief is that Jesus would find considerable favor in the efforts of many Christian churches today and less than good favor with some.

Ed

Perhaps my original statement was a little harsh; modern churches do not resemble original christian "churches" at all. What we have now is a result of Christianity becoming the religion of the state with I believe it was Alexander. Before that we see little groups meeting without ritual, in some person's home, no sermons, etc. Alexander (again from the top of my head this is who I think made Christianity the state's religion) decided to incorporate christianity with the pagan ritual and meeting place because it would be easier for mass consumption. Are modern churches bad? I dunno. Some churches still try to do it this way.

Which leads me to my original post. The new emergent church is trying to do what was originally done on a larger scale using non-ritualistic forms of service, and a personal message for each person. Eh...
 
rory said:
is a result of Christianity becoming the religion of the state with I believe it was Alexander.

Or was it Constantine?
 
All that I know on the proof of God front is, where did we come from? Amino acid soup? Ok where did that come from? And from that where did "that" come from? So we get all the way to "the big bang" or some other theory, well where did the big bang come from? Some higher being then us would have had to "snapped his fingers" to start it all into action. I don't know if God used a big bang to make the universe, but I do know we wouldn't be here with out a God. And I believe this is the God talked about in the Bible. Like someones sig on these forums goes something like this: "If there is no God, where did all this dirt come from".
 
cello_pudding said:
*raises hands*

*closes eyes*

*sways*












*drives hummer*

Ha! Dude, don't get me started on that one. *Shudder* I heard about this group of people who used to go around vandalizing Hummers because of their unjustified waste of the environment... I was so proud. *sniff*
 
johnny5dm said:
I ask you to consider your statement here as it applies to your own views. If you really want to have an open, honest and civil discussion about all of this, that's cool, but unless you're willing to let your views be challenged as well as ours, nothing productive either way will come of this.
Utter tripe.

I'm a free thinking individual, constantly questioning the world around me.

Contrast this with the "God is responsible for everything" approach.

Do you believe everything the Bible and the preacher say without question?

I believe very few things without question.
 
Ed Dixon said:
That’s actually an interesting question. Since no one alive today every talked to Jesus, all we have to go on is what is written. That, in turn, is interpreted by each church group and used as some part of the basis of their beliefs.

These beliefs vary considerably by group. Some discount Jesus altogether while others have him as their central focus.

My own belief is that Jesus would find considerable favor in the efforts of many Christian churches today and less than good favor with some.

Ed

Isn't the point here that those who claim to know God's mind, take on the power of God on Earth?

They can cause almighty wars, terrorist attacks, people to not use birth control, etc.

This form of dualism should have been left in the Iron age where it belongs frankly. Why should I bow down to some guy, just because his political machinations, in the very human world of religious organizations, have made him a religious elder?
 
soundchaser59 said:
This is actually a very good synopsis of the theme in "Case For The Creator." As near as I can tell, Stroble presents the arguments without religious bias and without quoting any scripture. All he does is interview top scientists alive today and ask them to discuss the pros and cons of believing in "Intelligent Design" vs believing in what amounts to macro-evolution. It is very compelling when you look at it from the perspective of the "clock maker" analogy, especially if you accept the varied assertions in the book regarding the fragile and pockmarked framework that claims to "support" theories surrounding macro evolution. What is the "chance" or the "probability" that the finely tuned and hand crafted Swiss watch could have come into existence by accident or by random environmental mechanisms?? It's the same thing. If one believes that the entire finely tuned universe could happen by accident and chance, then one must also believe that something infintely less complicated (like the Swiss watch) could also happen by random chance and accident. Put it the other way: If you look at something as relatively simple and unsophisticated as a Swiss watch and you say it obviously shows signs of "an intelligent mind, an intelligent designer," how can you then look at the universe in its finely tuned and relatively infinite complexity and convoluted sophistication and say that there are no signs whatsoever of any "intelligent mind" at work here??

On the other hand, part of the opposing argument is that evolutionary "science" has never produced one single experiment to demonstrate how even the simplest amino acids can form by accident or by chance in some "primordial soup".....and it is an almost incomprehensible quantum leap in biological theory to go from simple amino acids to simple single celled organisms with simple dna strands in their nucleus. Then to go from there to all of the variegated life on earth, including human dna and the human brain?? To all of the finely tuned "accidents" that make the universe function and allow this planet and it's life to exist at all?? All by random chance and accident and "natural selection"?? It's ok to casually believe that all of this happened by chance? Because it's "good, hard science??" But I'm silly and stupid if I accept the notion of "intelligent design" as being at least equally plausible?? Yup, no contradiction there, mates..... :confused:

I have made a personal choice to believe that none of this could have happened by chance, as many macro evolution theories would claim. I am frankly absolutely tickled by the idea that the universe is waaaaay toooo perfectly tuned to have "evolved" by chance or accident. In the end, that inner personal choice is all any of us will ever have to go on. No one will ever prove or disprove God or No God or intelligent design - or evolution - one way or the other. There is no proof, and I believe the absence of proof is by design. It's the only way to guarantee that no one is compelled, but rather each one makes a sincere and pure choice to have faith......or not.

The only "proof" anyone will ever have is the effect that the choice has on your own life and the lives of those who come in contact with you. You can call it a "convenient explanation" if you like, but it has the advantage of also being a "convenient truth." If you are waiting for someone else to "prove it" to you, you will be waiting a long, long time..... If you want a pile of laughs while you wait, then read Stroble's book.

Firstly, natural selection is the opposite of randomness and chance.
It is a very powerful mechanism. We are not advanced enough to be able to predict the outcome of its machinations, but that doesn't mean that it is random, or chance. It is a simple but powerful tool like a spanner or a wrench, that life uses to maintain its existence through diversity and adaptation.

Creationists love equating natural selection and evolution with blind chance. It simply isn't true and represents a total mis-understanding of Darwin. They are shooting arrows at a straw-man.

You're talking about being a deist basically.
If God just sets everything in motion and then goes off somewhere to clean out the fluff in his celestial belly-button, what's the point in him at all?

Because humans had to react quickly in hunter-gatherer situations, we attach intentions to everything. You don't have much time to decide whether that Tiger is going to eat you or not! These days we might express this dualism by saying "My car doesn't want to start today".

The creation and "meaning to life" part of religion is just a way of attaching intention to the universe and existence itself, when it just isn't there in nature.

The truth is that we just don't know.
People often accuse scientists of arrogance - when in fact their theories are experimentally repeatable by anybody (if they are good theories). There is nothing a scientist likes more than to be proven wrong, as this upholds the scientific ideal and progresses human knowledge.

It is far more arrogant to say you know the answer to the meaning of everything and how all things came to be. If religious institutions had their way we would know nothing of genetics and still think the Sun went around the Earth. When did the Catholic church pardon Galileo? Some time in the 1980's? Amazing!
 
ggunn said:
Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find my self in - an interesting hole I find my self in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears caches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for.

- Douglas Adams, 1952-2001

It's a nice expression of the anthropic principle, which is well worth reading up on and considering...
 
SRR said:
All that I know on the proof of God front is, where did we come from? Amino acid soup? Ok where did that come from? And from that where did "that" come from? So we get all the way to "the big bang" or some other theory, well where did the big bang come from? Some higher being then us would have had to "snapped his fingers" to start it all into action. I don't know if God used a big bang to make the universe, but I do know we wouldn't be here with out a God. And I believe this is the God talked about in the Bible. Like someones sig on these forums goes something like this: "If there is no God, where did all this dirt come from".
So who made God?
 
Now where was I about my lovely little guitar...?
Oh yeah, a Bruno Royal Artist Semi Acoustic with noisey single coils. Light playful & a bit knocked around by previous owners. It's not as nice as the previous Bruno Royal artist I had - it was stolen during a burglary - as it doesn't have the same cutting tone in the bridge PU nor the pulled poles that gave it a great bellow for bass runs.
It is a joy to play however.
 
Here 'tis.
ignore the brutish thing holding it...
Bruno Royal artist MIJ semi acoustic, custom brass nut & fondled by a brass custom nut.
Bought for AUS$70 in a 2nd hand shop in 1979.
 

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