condeser vs. dynamic

S

sharky60

New member
Hey all, first post here...

I'm building a home studio, in my home office, no acoustic buffers.

the purpose of the studio is for a podcast radio talk show & for doing voice over work.

I'll be running the mic thru an audio mixer possibly a Mackie profx8 & recording on a digital recorder roland r-05.

the question is, condenser mic (Studio ProjectsC1) or dynamic mic (Heil pr40 or Shure sm7b)?

I'm getting about a 50/50 response to my investigations so far.

a radio friend of mine says condenser. checking with a local radio show producer, they use dynamics at the station & he had a condenser at home. A Podcast expert suggests a dynamic.

...what's a dj to do?
 
Test all the mics you can, preferably in your own studio, until you find the one that you think sounds best on your voice. Seriously, there's no substitute. Take advantage of some of the liberal return policies at the big box and/or online music retailers.


Edit - though it seems to me like this is more a Microphones question than a Studio Construction question
 
ashcat said:
Edit - though it seems to me like this is more a Microphones question than a Studio Construction question
Click to expand...
Right you are and I'll move it to the mic section.

If your room is untreated and sounds bad, then you might consider a less sensitive dynamic mic. A condenser will pickup everything. That includes all the unwanted artifacts of a poor sounding room.
 
Chili said:
If your room is untreated and sounds bad, then you might consider a less sensitive dynamic mic. A condenser will pickup everything. That includes all the unwanted artifacts of a poor sounding room.
Click to expand...
You know, I'm not trying to argue with you on this. Frankly, I have noticed that this seems to be true in my own experience. But how can it possibly be? Sensitivity is sensitivity, no? A given SPL hitting the diaphragm creates a given voltage, and the relationship must necessarily be linear else we'd have distortion, right?

So, I'm not going to look up any real world numbers just now, but let's say we've got a 90dbSPL signal hitting the two mics which (since their theoretical) are in the same place and time. One is a dynamic, and puts out a volt peak to peak signal. The other is a much more sensitive condenser and puts out 2V at the same time. Great.

Now, we've got a pretty strong reflection coming off the floor or a nearby wall or something, hitting the mics at say 78dbSPL. Well, I may be confusing my power and my voltage or something, but let's just say that this creates a voltage on the dynamic of 1/4V, and on the condenser it would be 1/2V.

If we add 6db gain to the dynamic signal (at the pre, or down the road somewhere), then the direct sound will be up to the same 2V, and shouldn't the reflection also be up to the same 1/2V as the condenser?
 
ashcat_lt said:
You know, I'm not trying to argue with you on this. Frankly, I have noticed that this seems to be true in my own experience. But how can it possibly be? Sensitivity is sensitivity, no? A given SPL hitting the diaphragm creates a given voltage, and the relationship must necessarily be linear else we'd have distortion, right?

So, I'm not going to look up any real world numbers just now, but let's say we've got a 90dbSPL signal hitting the two mics which (since their theoretical) are in the same place and time. One is a dynamic, and puts out a volt peak to peak signal. The other is a much more sensitive condenser and puts out 2V at the same time. Great.

Now, we've got a pretty strong reflection coming off the floor or a nearby wall or something, hitting the mics at say 78dbSPL. Well, I may be confusing my power and my voltage or something, but let's just say that this creates a voltage on the dynamic of 1/4V, and on the condenser it would be 1/2V.

If we add 6db gain to the dynamic signal (at the pre, or down the road somewhere), then the direct sound will be up to the same 2V, and shouldn't the reflection also be up to the same 1/2V as the condenser?
Click to expand...

Although your argument makes logical sense, for whatever reason dynamic mics do better in bad acoustic spaces in practice. To the original poster: Dynamic mics rule for this application. There's a reason so many radio stations use SM 7's and RE20's. Rush Limbaugh (love him or not, he can use anything he wants) uses an Electrovoice RE20. It really is golden BTW.
 
ashcat_lt said:
You know, I'm not trying to argue with you on this. Frankly, I have noticed that this seems to be true in my own experience. But how can it possibly be?
Click to expand...

People recommend dynamics for bad environments all the time but I think it's usually good advice for the wrong reason.
I think you're (ashcan) right. If a dynamic is less sensitive to the source it won't discriminate. It's equally less sensitive to reflections so you end up in the same boat.
I duno, there's probably a point where a dynamic mic won't pick up a sound but a capacitor mic would.
Who knows, even if that's true I doubt it's on a noticeable enough scale to be relevant.

My experience is that dynamic mics perform better in bad environments because we can turn down the gain and get closer to the mic without plosives etc.
The change in mic didn't do anything special, but the change in proximity altered the perceived ratio between source and reflections.

I've always figured that the mic picking up the lowest amount of room reflections is the mic you're closest to.




OP. If you're looking for that dead dry radio sound, either treat the room and pic the mic you suits you best, or pick a dynamic that you can get very very close to.
 
ashcat_lt said:
You know, I'm not trying to argue with you on this. Frankly, I have noticed that this seems to be true in my own experience. But how can it possibly be? Sensitivity is sensitivity, no? A given SPL hitting the diaphragm creates a given voltage, and the relationship must necessarily be linear else we'd have distortion, right?
Click to expand...

I had to think about this one for a while. I think it comes down to you are halfway there. There are two kinds of sensitivity in microphones; electrical and physical. (I can hear the jokes already!!)

Electrical is how much of the transducer movement converts to an electrical signal. Physical is how much the sound pressure variations in the air move the transducer. I think the electrical part is what you were talking about.

There are physical differences in sensitivity between a dynamic mic and a condenser. On a dynamic mic, the transducer is suspended by a "spider web" material and it has a wire coil wrapped around a magnet. The spider web offers resistance to movement due to its elasticity (or lack of) and the coil offers resistance in the form of inertia. There is also backwards electrical motive force due to a coil moving within a magnetic field, but that is part of the electrical sensitivity.

In a condenser mic, I'm not sure how a foil is held in place. I believe it is just clamped around the edges and allow to vibrate because it flexes in the middle. (insert more adult humor here!!) The condenser mic does not use a coil. It moves between two plates biased with a voltage and causes a change in the capacitance. The total mass of a condenser foil is much lower than a dynamic foil and can be influenced more easily by changes in air pressure around the foil. I am willing to believe this is the number one reason why condensers are more sensitive to sound than dynamics.

Plus, there is also the difference in transducer size as generally the condenser foil is larger than the dynamic foil. But that's not always the case.

However, this is all conjecture on my part and I might be completely wrong, I'm no expert on mics. But to me, it seems to make sense.
 
Steenamaroo said:
People recommend dynamics for bad environments all the time but I think it's usually good advice for the wrong reason.
I think you're (ashcan) right. If a dynamic is less sensitive to the source it won't discriminate. It's equally less sensitive to reflections so you end up in the same boat.
I duno, there's probably a point where a dynamic mic won't pick up a sound but a capacitor mic would.
Who knows, even if that's true I doubt it's on a noticeable enough scale to be relevant.

My experience is that dynamic mics perform better in bad environments because we can turn down the gain and get closer to the mic without plosives etc.
The change in mic didn't do anything special, but the change in proximity altered the perceived ratio between source and reflections.

I've always figured that the mic picking up the lowest amount of room reflections is the mic you're closest to.

OP. If you're looking for that dead dry radio sound, either treat the room and pic the mic you suits you best, or pick a dynamic that you can get very very close to.
Click to expand...
Please.... Make this a sticky
Logic prevailing over.. whatever that other stuff was..
How refreshing! :D
 
Last edited:
Chili said:
I had to think about this one for a while. I think it comes down to you are halfway there. There are two kinds of sensitivity in microphones; electrical and physical. (I can hear the jokes already!!)

Electrical is how much of the transducer movement converts to an electrical signal. Physical is how much the sound pressure variations in the air move the transducer. I think the electrical part is what you were talking about.

There are physical differences in sensitivity between a dynamic mic and a condenser. On a dynamic mic, the transducer is suspended by a "spider web" material and it has a wire coil wrapped around a magnet. The spider web offers resistance to movement due to its elasticity (or lack of) and the coil offers resistance in the form of inertia. There is also backwards electrical motive force due to a coil moving within a magnetic field, but that is part of the electrical sensitivity.

In a condenser mic, I'm not sure how a foil is held in place. I believe it is just clamped around the edges and allow to vibrate because it flexes in the middle. (insert more adult humor here!!) The condenser mic does not use a coil. It moves between two plates biased with a voltage and causes a change in the capacitance. The total mass of a condenser foil is much lower than a dynamic foil and can be influenced more easily by changes in air pressure around the foil. I am willing to believe this is the number one reason why condensers are more sensitive to sound than dynamics.

Plus, there is also the difference in transducer size as generally the condenser foil is larger than the dynamic foil. But that's not always the case.

However, this is all conjecture on my part and I might be completely wrong, I'm no expert on mics. But to me, it seems to make sense.
Click to expand...

I would presume once you rule out distance to the source, pattern, the big things there likely can be other differences at play -transient response a little bit, extended top end, (what else?
But then how often do we actually get examples of 'all things equal to compare.
One 'typical difference perhaps in 'dynamic vs condenser' is look at the off axis response of most directional mics. Big dip in the mids, not so much up top (and bottom). Now toss in your condenser's extended top rise? IDK, could be part of it.
 
:p This whole bit is timely for me. Here I am mulling' over if I want to chance trying 4047' + pop screen in place of the RE20 on the next live' band+vocal in-the-house session coming.
..It's the 'MP ver -I have less time on dual diaphragm condensers. For a close vocal I'm hoping compared to a single cap condenser should help with less proximity effect right? :o :)
 
IDK what other stuff you're talking about. My statement was perfectly logical AND agreed in whole with what steen said.

The thing about the differences in diaphragms... I kinda get where you're going there, but I feel like you're making a false distinction. In both types of mic the movement of the diaphragm is integral to the electronic function. Sensitivity really is the combination of what you are seeing as two different things. I fully understand that there is inertia at play. That impacts frequency and transient response. But I don't think it helps with rejection of reflections, though. If the pressure-to-voltage transfer is not linear from very soft to very loud then we hear distortion. If it somehow wasn't as "sensitive" to quieter sounds as it was to louder, there would be a particularly nasty crossover distortion. If it was bad enough it would sound like gating. We won't tolerate that sort of thing very long, especially on voices.

Pretty sure steen's got the right of it.
 
ashcat_lt said:
IDK what other stuff you're talking about. My statement was perfectly logical AND agreed in whole with what steen said.

The thing about the differences in diaphragms... I kinda get where you're going there, but I feel like you're making a false distinction. In both types of mic the movement of the diaphragm is integral to the electronic function. Sensitivity really is the combination of what you are seeing as two different things. I fully understand that there is inertia at play. That impacts frequency and transient response. But I don't think it helps with rejection of reflections, though. If the pressure-to-voltage transfer is not linear from very soft to very loud then we hear distortion. If it somehow wasn't as "sensitive" to quieter sounds as it was to louder, there would be a particularly nasty crossover distortion. If it was bad enough it would sound like gating. We won't tolerate that sort of thing very long, especially on voices.

Pretty sure steen's got the right of it.
Click to expand...
Yeah I gotta' learn to be more careful (specific actually..
Except for some exploring of possible exceptions in post 14.. I'm agreeing with both of you.
I think for the most part if you rule out the big things -distance to the source, -pattern, the whole 'dynamics are better in poor situations' falls part.
But then how many condensers sound that great at an inch'? A few? Thus for real reasons and not surprisingly that other generality that gets thrown around.
Then again not that many dynamics sound really good there either. That diminishing returns thing- Get up on the capsule, good 'sig to noise', but a piss poor place to get a good 'picture of a voice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top