common mistakes that make your tone suck.

[liv_rong]

I know not much about amps and how they work. can someone explain to me about using to much pre gain? Is this a knob on fancy amps or something lol? Im not sure how gain stagin works in any amp, not even my own. I probably should.

 

[ibleedburgundy]

I know not much about amps and how they work. can someone explain to me about using to much pre gain? Is this a knob on fancy amps or something lol? Im not sure how gain stagin works in any amp, not even my own. I probably should.

The are pedals that can increase the signal level which in turn drives the amp a little harder. Some guys rely on this for additional gain and/or distortion.

 

[liv_rong]

The are pedals that can increase the signal level which in turn drives the amp a little harder. Some guys rely on this for additional gain and/or distortion.

Ahhh, I knew people used pedals to push the amps I just didnt know it was referred to as such that was previously mentioned. I use one as well from time to time but just for a little extra push. I wouldnt be able to tell if someone was using to much though by just listening. Anyone have an obvious example?

 

[JDOD]

I know not much about amps and how they work. can someone explain to me about using to much pre gain? Is this a knob on fancy amps or something lol? Im not sure how gain stagin works in any amp, not even my own. I probably should.

Pre gain is gain from the tubes in the pre amp as opposed to the power amp.

People who are trying to get a tone at low volume often push too much preamp gain cos they don't want to go loud. While this can sound ok in the room when you record this normally sounds thin and fizzy.

 

[ibleedburgundy]

Ahhh, I knew people used pedals to push the amps I just didnt know it was referred to as such that was previously mentioned. I use one as well from time to time but just for a little extra push. I wouldnt be able to tell if someone was using to much though by just listening. Anyone have an obvious example?

Probably Stevie Ray Vaughan. I say probably because I don't know for sure what settings he used on the tube screamer, but he used two sometimes, and people say he put the level all the way up and the gain almost all the way down. If this is the case, then he was using it mostly for a clean boost that pushed the amp.

 

[Farview]

Most amps designed to distort have two volume knobs. The one that ISN'T the master volume is the pre-gain. Generally, it's the one you turn to get more distortion, not the one you turn to get more volume.

Most guitar hero,Yngwie type players have a tone of pre-gain. (Preamp distortion) Angus from ac/DC is all post gain. (Power amp distortion)

 

[Greg_L]

I know not much about amps and how they work. can someone explain to me about using to much pre gain? Is this a knob on fancy amps or something lol? Im not sure how gain stagin works in any amp, not even my own. I probably should.

Pretty much all guitar amps have a preamp section, which is not unlike a mic preamp. A guitar signal is tiny and weak, so the amp's preamp boosts it to go to the power section. Usually this is tied in with the gain knob. Those little tubes in a tube amp? Those are mostly preamp tubes. At least one of them is all about gain. You gotta have some preamp gain, but when preamp gain is all you rely on, the tone is usually fuzzy and mushy. Ideally you'll strike a balance between just enough preamp gain for some drive, and then let massive volume and power section breakup take care of the rest. But most people can't or won't go that loud because they are...well, for whatever reasons.... so they compensate by goosing the preamp gain and sounding like shit.

 

[Robus]

Or get something like a classic Fender combo that has only one knob, and turn it up until you like what you hear.

 

[Greg_L]

Or get something like a classic Fender combo that has only one knob, and turn it up until you like what you hear.

Or better yet, a Plexi and two 4x12s. Turn it up until you like what you hear so everyone else in the neighborhood can enjoy it too.

 

[famous beagle]

Except that definitely was not your typical amp pre-gain. There was no preamp gain on the VH amp. That was cranked amp near meltdown gain.

There was a Variac, though, wasn't there?

 

[Greg_L]

There was a Variac, though, wasn't there?

Yup. Supposedly* he reduced the power available to the amp to around 95v from standard US wall outlet 110, lowering the internal voltages and allowing him to crank the amp for more saturation with less damage.

*I say supposedly because EVH is a pathological liar and manipulates his own history for fun or because his brain is mashed potatoes, so who fucking knows? Some say his amps were modded. I've heard a whole bunch of cranked Plexis - they sound great but none of them sound like that first album. Actually, he's never again sounded like that album either. That tone on that album was just one of those moment-in-time things IMO.

 

[jimistone]

I have been putting the little 25 watt peavey bravo tube amp through its paces and it's caused me to rethink my "too much pre-gain ruins your tone" mindset. The pre-gain REALLY sounds good on this amp and I don't know why. It's the standard 12ax7 tube powered V1, V2, and V3. Just like a Fender Hot Rod Deville. The Deville pre-gain sounds pretty bad and this Bravos pre-gain is killer.
I guess it must be something besides the tube that affects the pre tone.

 

[Greg_L]

I guess it must be something besides the tube that affects the pre tone.

It's obviously lots of things. Change one microfarad on one cap and the whole signal path changes within the amp. Some of the famous mods to famous circuits that have altered tone landscape forever consist of a few 10 cent resistors or caps piggybacked across each other.

Some amps have very very tight power sections and get the meat of their tone from the preamps. They're designed to resist massive power section meltdown unless they are truly and literally cranked. If an amp is designed to work that way, then it can sound very good with tons of preamp gain.

 

[JDOD]

Some amps have very very tight power sections and get the meat of their tone from the preamps. They're designed to resist massive power section meltdown unless they are truly and literally cranked. If an amp is designed to work that way, then it can sound very good with tons of preamp gain.

Do you think this is more of a modern amp thing? I've tried quite a few amps out over the last few months, a Randall 50, Laney Ironheart, a couple of others and my own amp. None of them seem to get a huge amount of breakup from the power amp. Although if you have the pregain high and the master low they sound like shit.

Its almost like as you crank the master, its able to "absorb" some of that preamp gain and stop it sounding shit, even though its still very distorted - I can't think of a better way of explaining it. Conversely, as you get louder, you need less gain to sound heavy though.

 

[Greg_L]

Do you think this is more of a modern amp thing? I've tried quite a few amps out over the last few months, a Randall 50, Laney Ironheart, a couple of others and my own amp. None of them seem to get a huge amount of breakup from the power amp. Although if you have the pregain high and the master low they sound like shit.

It's not a modern amp thing. Ancient Plexis have very tight power sections. Those amps stay pretty clean-ish until you really twist the dial. They're famous for their "power tube breakup" sound, but you gotta really push them to get it there. Now they changed over the years with bright caps and stuff to get the preamp breaking up sooner, but in general those old amps have tight power sections that resist breakup. The reason separate preamp and master vol controls exist today was an attempt to get "that" sound at a lower volume because those non-master amps are brutally loud. I've personally never met an amp that sounds as good at low volume as it does at bigger volume. That's not to say every amp has to be cranked, because some sound like shit when dimed too, but you gotta find that tipping point when the power section and speakers start to play their role as well. IMO a bad low volume sound isn't necessarily the fault of the amp. It can be, but not always. A lot of times you're just not pushing the speaker(s) enough.

Its almost like as you crank the master, its able to "absorb" some of that preamp gain and stop it sounding shit, even though its still very distorted - I can't think of a better way of explaining it. Conversely, as you get louder, you need less gain to sound heavy though.

Yes, that. Especially with recording. Louder with a little less gain is usually better than quieter with more gain. Live? Sure, dime everything. Gain is good live. But when miking a cab for tracking tracks, louder and a little cleaner usually yields bigger better tones. For me, the louder I go, the less gain I want. On my JCM 800, it's savagely loud, but when dicking around for fun, I have the gain dimed and the master very low. Sounds okay, that's not what the amp is for, but it's okay. But for real use, live or recording, I'll obviously turn it way up and turn the gain back down a few ticks. Sounds way better.

 

[JDOD]

Yeah, my amp certainly sounds better louder with everything else being equal. There does seem to be a tipping point though, above which it starts to get a bit flubby. I've got it to a happy medium now where I can record in the house (without pissing off the neighbours too much) and get a decent tone. Its uncomfortable in the room if you don't have headphones on, but its not so loud its gonna leave your ears ringing after 1/2 an hour.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah, my amp certainly sounds better louder with everything else being equal. There does seem to be a tipping point though, above which it starts to get a bit flubby. I've got it to a happy medium now where I can record in the house (without pissing off the neighbours too much) and get a decent tone. Its uncomfortable in the room if you don't have headphones on, but its not so loud its gonna leave your ears ringing after 1/2 an hour.

Right, that's a good thing. For all of my master vol amps, the happy spot seems to start around 4 or 5 on the vol knob. That's just where they come to life. As loud as I like to be, I'm not cranking everything all the time. I'll dime the Plexis because they're just glorious, but the JMP/JCM master vol amps pretty much live between 5 and 7 for recording. They're still loud as shit, but they're not literally cranked. They're not high gain either, but they work great for me. I couldn't be happier with my own guitar tones.

Loudness is relative anyway and in our world of home recording it's obviously dependent on many factors like wives, kids, girlfriends, boyfriends, neighbors, cops, etc. I don't think anyone that knows anything would disagree though that louder is pretty much always better.

 

[Tadpui]

Right, that's a good thing. For all of my master vol amps, the happy spot seems to start around 4 or 5 on the vol knob. That's just where they come to life. As loud as I like to be, I'm not cranking everything all the time. I'll dime the Plexis because they're just glorious, but the JMP/JCM master vol amps pretty much live between 5 and 7 for recording. They're still loud as shit, but they're not literally cranked. They're not high gain either, but they work great for me. I couldn't be happier with my own guitar tones.

Loudness is relative anyway and in our world of home recording it's obviously dependent on many factors like wives, kids, girlfriends, boyfriends, neighbors, cops, etc. I don't think anyone that knows anything would disagree though that louder is pretty much always better.

Through much trial, error, and tone thread lessons, I've found the same thing. Somewhere around 12:00 on the master volume, my JCM800 is very very happy. Past about 3:00 though, it starts to get a little too loud for its own good. Maybe the speakers are pushed beyond their capabilities? Output transformer maybe? It just gets grainy, harsh, and distorted in an unpleasant way.

Again, after much hand-holding in the tone thread, I think I finally understand the preamp gain on that amp as well. I like how Marshall did this control. It helps counteract the tendency towards thin and fizzy by gradually reducing the bright cap's involvement as the preamp gain is turned up. So it gets more saturated, but it gets fatter. I think that's pretty brilliant.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

My Pod always sounds best dimed.

 

[Greg_L]

Through much trial, error, and tone thread lessons, I've found the same thing. Somewhere around 12:00 on the master volume, my JCM800 is very very happy. Past about 3:00 though, it starts to get a little too loud for its own good. Maybe the speakers are pushed beyond their capabilities? Output transformer maybe? It just gets grainy, harsh, and distorted in an unpleasant way.

Again, after much hand-holding in the tone thread, I think I finally understand the preamp gain on that amp as well. I like how Marshall did this control. It helps counteract the tendency towards thin and fizzy by gradually reducing the bright cap's involvement as the preamp gain is turned up. So it gets more saturated, but it gets fatter. I think that's pretty brilliant.

Yup. And I don't know if you've tried this, but 2203/2204s are awesome in the way you can crank the master vol, literally crank it, and roll the preamp way back. This basically puts the the amp into pseudo-Plexi-sound territory, and it just sounds righteous. It's loud, but sounds so good. Think like Malcolm Young AC/DC style crunch city with clarity. 2203s/2204s are some of the "loosest" amps Marshall made, and their power sections distort beautifully when cranked...but you gotta keep the preamp gain in check or it's a mess.