clipping in main mix

  • Thread starter Thread starter cstockdale
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cstockdale

cstockdale

supafly killa homey
I have a tune nearly done, have compressed several tracks, maximized some of them to -1 dB. Individually, none of the tracks clip. Several tracks are routed through an Aux bus, but even those aren't clipping, but in the main output (Sonar 2.2 XL) in the console view, it is blowing through the roof with the level meter at unity gain.Not only is it clipping, but it never isn't clipping.

I then tried using the Waves Ultramaximizer on it just to put a hard limit at -1 dB, and it keeps it down below -6dB, but there is horrible compression artifact noise.

Why is this? Do I need to just drop the mains down to just sub-clipping? Although this works, I am just trying to understand why this is happening in the first place.
 
Yes you will need to drop the mains down...

Even though all the tracks aren't clipping, when you play them together it all adds up... If you solo one track and have the main and unity the levels should be the same... as you send more and more tracks to the main the level of the main will gradually increase. I know this isn't a good thing, but I usually have my main at -3db to -6db for final mix down... otherwise the main would clip like hell.

Porter
 
Like Porter said, one track might not be clipping but as you add and add, especially if the tracks you continue to add share frequencies, it'll build up and create your main to clip. Once you're done mixing you should try to get the main to a level where it's not clipping.

Carlos
 
Remember the logaritmic scale:

Say you have two tracks running at the clipping-limit (0 dB). The VMain will be:

0 dB + 0 dB = 3 dB

... way above clipping!


2 * level(dB) = level(dB) + 3 (circa)
10 dB + 10 dB = 13 dB
13 dB + 13 dB = 16 dB .. and so on...
 
moskus said:
Remember the logaritmic scale:
0 dB + 0 dB = 3 dB
Click to expand...
If the zero represents n^0, shouldn't that be 2dB?

n^0=1

Let me assure Moskus, I'm more confused than confident. :)

--
BluesMeister
 
Nope... let me give you the formula:

Total Level = 10 log (10^(L1/10) + 10^(L2/10) + 10^(L3/10) + ... + 10^(Ln/10))

where
n = 1, 2, 3 .... how many tracks (or sources) you're using
L1 = Level 1
L2 = Level 2 etc..

Therefore two tracks running at 0 dB => L1 = L2 = 0
Hence: 10*log(10^(0/10) + 10^(0/10)) = 10*log(1+1) = 3.0103

:)
 
Don't ask me why, but when I have the VMain clipping, I normally go back and adjust each of the individual tracks - leaving the VMain at unity setting. Obviously this is much more tedious than just lowering the VMain fader. But for some reason I felt it better for the exported wave if the VMain fader was at unity.

Can anyone think of any benefits of one approach over the other? If not, maybe I need to rethink my approach - since if there are a lot of tracks, my approach gets old real fast.


BTW, cstockdale, why are you maximizing your tracks to -1db?? This is not something I would do unless I needed more volume from that track in the overall mix (which it sounds like you've got too much volume already).

I know there's been a lot of discussion at recording at "hot" levels, but this is really in order to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio. Once the track is recorded, if you raise the overall level, the noise level raises with it. Therefore there's no benefit that I can see, unless the track isn't giving you enough juice (and in that case, you probably recorded it too low).
 
dachay2tnr said:
Can anyone think of any benefits of one approach over the other? If not, maybe I need to rethink my approach - since if there are a lot of tracks, my approach gets old real fast.
Click to expand...
No, not really. But it might give you more control of the total volume. I'm thinking about the lines that maybe there's one particular track that is loud, and you can just compress it a little more...

Other than that, I don't see any difference between adjusting every track and adjusting the VMain except the time used...
 
moskus said:
No, not really. But it might give you more control of the total volume. I'm thinking about the lines that maybe there's one particular track that is loud, and you can just compress it a little more...
Click to expand...
You're probably right, the more I think about it. So how do I get all those wasted hours back? :D

BTW, if I get just an occasional clip due to a spike, I usually handle that with a volume envelope. I watch the VMain meter to see where the clip occurs. Generally you can associate it with something that happens at that exact point in the music (snare hit; vocalist nails a note in a certain way, etc.). Then I go back to the offending track and use an envelope to drop just that event. If it occurs a bit more frequently, I will resort to compression on the entire track.
 
I usually run Waves Audiotrack plugin on every track I use, and it's more often than not a compression problem for me. Then just open up the plugin, adjust the compression a littel and we're OK...

The Audiotrack plugin is great! :)
 
dachay2tnr said:
Don't ask me why, but when I have the VMain clipping, I normally go back and adjust each of the individual tracks - leaving the VMain at unity setting. Obviously this is much more tedious than just lowering the VMain fader. But for some reason I felt it better for the exported wave if the VMain fader was at unity.

Can anyone think of any benefits of one approach over the other? If not, maybe I need to rethink my approach - since if there are a lot of tracks, my approach gets old real fast.


BTW, cstockdale, why are you maximizing your tracks to -1db?? This is not something I would do unless I needed more volume from that track in the overall mix (which it sounds like you've got too much volume already).

I know there's been a lot of discussion at recording at "hot" levels, but this is really in order to maximize the signal-to-noise ratio. Once the track is recorded, if you raise the overall level, the noise level raises with it. Therefore there's no benefit that I can see, unless the track isn't giving you enough juice (and in that case, you probably recorded it too low).
Click to expand...

At some point any mixer is going to run out of head room and lowering the main won't fix it. I haven't seen how you know when you hit this point in ACKUS. I guess the only way to tell is to print the mix and look for spikes that are flat lined on top?
As far as track levels go, if you record at -6 to -10 or so and start with, and most of the tracks faders down a bit, it's no wories.:D
Hot? Shmaut. At 24 bit you got about 144 db to play with. Our mics run about 70-80 s/n?
:D :D
Wayne
 
moskus said:
I usually run Waves Audiotrack plugin on every track I use, and it's more often than not a compression problem for me. Then just open up the plugin, adjust the compression a littel and we're OK...

The Audiotrack plugin is great! :)
Click to expand...

Hey Moskus, it's very good to have back around here. I recorded a hardcore metal band last weekend and I added the audiotrack to each track, found it quite useful and cool!!! Thanks once again.

Carlos
 
Thanks for the tips on how tracks add up to clip the main. Why am I pushing my individual tracks so high? I guess I have just fallen into the trap of "louder is better". To my ears, it sounded better the hotter I got the signals, but maybe I have just been fooling myself.

But, that is all about to change as I just got my new SP B3 mic this week, (which replaces a pair of severely limiting sm58's), so all my vox and acoustic guitar tracks are about to be redone. Which means all the mixes have to be redone etc. I have a few acoustic tracks that I am actually very happy with the sound even though they were recorded with a stereo-mic setup of sm58's, so I may not redo those. Most of this past year (since I started recording at all at home) has been spent just learning Sonar, Reason, Waves plugins, tracking, mixing basics....obviously I missed the point about dB adding up in the mix. Time to redo all the tunes anyway, as I made so many errors at the tracking stage with some of them, and like I said, my mic situation has really limited the quality of my recordings.

Next up on the gear list is an Omni Studio at the end of this month so I can get away from the shitty Behringer 602A pre's,
 
Next up on the gear list is an Omni Studio at the end of this month so I can get away from the shitty Behringer 602A pre's,
Click to expand...
Stop!! Get off the gear treadmill now. It's not too late. We have secret groups that can help you (comprised mostly of the wives of home recordists).

Unfortunately, it's too late for most of the rest of us. The habit is just too hard to break. :(

To think, it all started with just a two track keroke tape machine. It was just a cheap little thing to record me and my guitar. Had its own built-in mic and reverb. Who knew what it would lead to?
 
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no shit. Once upon a time I was just a singer who liked to sing! Then I decided I needed to learn guitar so I wouldn't always have to harrass guitar players with the classic "do you know..... ?", then I thought I would be happy just jamming at parties, then I started writing songs, then I decided I needed to learn the bass, piano, buy an electric guitar, an amp modeller, a 4-track, play gigs , then I happily lived wiht playing my guitar to loops in Acid, then I rented a studio-in-a-box and saw what digital editing could do, then Sonar, then Reason, tehn Waves plugins, then a SB card wasn't good enough, ..........


next stop, RealWorld Studios!
 
I started off by learning the recorder in school..then the guitar (5 guitars later), then I wanted to learn how to play Piano Man, so I taught myself how to play the keyboard (2 keyboards later).. then a muso at a wedding introducted me to MIDI.. (7 sound cards & MIDI modules later), then I started recording a sond or two, 1 mic plugged into a cassette recorder.. in between my mouth and guitar to 'mix' the two 'tracks'. Then along came my first 4/64 <-whatever you want to call it (Roland VS-840Ex). I only recorded a few songs on it because for some reason I felt so limited. I wanted to Roland VS-2480.. ($10 000 AUD), looked at the alternatives, ie I had a decent computer, went SONAR, transferred all my old songs into it, and now I've started to re-record the song... hopefully have the first one up next week!!!!!!!

Why do I need to go to a RealWorld Studio.... I've got one at home!!!!!!! :D

Porter

Sorry... just saw cstockdale post and had to respond in a similar matter..
 
Moskus' Maths Makes Music Meaningful!

moskus said:
Nope... let me give you the formula:
Total Level = 10 log (10^(L1/10) + 10^(L2/10) + 10^(L3/10) + ... + 10^(Ln/10))
Click to expand...
Thanks Moskus, that's an explanation I can understand. ;)

I presume this is in the FAQ? And if not, why not? :)

--
BluesMeister
 
Re: Moskus' Maths Makes Music Meaningful!

BluesMeister said:
I presume this is in the FAQ? And if not, why not? :)
Click to expand...
Excellent suggestion!

I will use next week to update the FAQs so keep them comming! :)
 
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