Classical guitar

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davecg321

New member
Should I use a large diaphragm or directional condenser?

The recording will essentially consist of vocal, guitar, bass (all tracked separately) - modern folky kind stuff

I have tried various distances but can't seem to get enough signal so always opt for closer positions (6") I can achieve more signal but get more noise from the preamp in doing so (presonus x Max)

The mics I have at my disposal are an nt1a and a rode m3.

How would peeps go about this?

My room is about 15ft x 13ft and fairly dead as far as acoustics go
 
I think the only way you are going to get much sound out of the classical is up close. They just don't have much volume because of the strings. I suggest use two mics, one up front towards the neck (usually 12th fret, but for classical you might want to go towards the sound hole). Then another between the sound hole and the bridge. I would say no further than a meter away.

If your room sounds OK, you can back that distance off and then add gain in the DAW to boost the volume. These are just suggestions, but a good place to start. Getting the sound right on acoustic to me is a fight every time I do it.
 
Exactly that. If you have a nice sounding room, you want to pick a bit of it up. Moving the mike away accomplishes that task. :)
 
Is 6" too close for a classical guitar I.e too boomy?

I assume it's fine to add more gain at the DAW doe more signal then?
 
Well, you stated adding gain from at the interface increased noise from your preamp. That would take care of that.

Room noise isn't necessarily bad. Just depends on the room. Also, the room could sound bad, but you could possibly find a good spot in your room that makes the recording sound good. Don't confuse a mixing room with a recording room. Often, a room with life is good for tracking. When mixing you want the room neutral.

Find some place that you think sounds good when you are playing, try different mic positions and distances and then determine what works best for you. Most rooms don't sound good, that is true, but it doesn't mean all rooms sound bad and you don't need all of the room to sound good, just a place where you can get a good track.

The further away the mic, the more room. You just have to experiment with it.
 
Is it a real, honest TG CONCERT classical guitar? I ask because my son recently paid 2000 euros for one made by a local luthier in France and he told me it is much louder and fuller toned than a standard narrow necked acoustic so if that is the case you would probably need to back the mics off a bit?

After all, different voices need different approaches..You would not tackle De Mingo the same way as Toni Bennet!

Dave.
 
I am trying to figure out how you have too much preamp noise? The NT1 is a very quiet mic and the Presonus pres are usually quiet too. When I record classical guitar I tend to mic further away than a normal steel string acoustic as the classical guitar needs to breath more to sound natural. the closest I would mic it is 3 feet. The last classical album I recorded which only featured guitar was miced with 4 mics, 2 at about 3 feet and 2 at about 6 feet. We then blended the mics for each piece during mixing to get the sound we wanted. Even with 4 mics recording using 4 preamps there was no preamp noise. I am wondering if you have another problem going on.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
I am trying to figure out how you have too much preamp noise? The NT1 is a very quiet mic and the Presonus pres are usually quiet too. When I record classical guitar I tend to mic further away than a normal steel string acoustic as the classical guitar needs to breath more to sound natural. the closest I would mic it is 3 feet. The last classical album I recorded which only featured guitar was miced with 4 mics, 2 at about 3 feet and 2 at about 6 feet. We then blended the mics for each piece during mixing to get the sound we wanted. Even with 4 mics recording using 4 preamps there was no preamp noise. I am wondering if you have another problem going on.

Alan.
Click to expand...

Probably trying to get the levels up before the mixing is completed. That seems to be the common theme for people new to recording.

OP, back to the basics. Track your guitar, don't worry about the levels or the room noise for now. Just get good clean levels (no clipping) and don't worry about how loud it is. Once you have it tracked, then you can worry to get it up to levels you are use to. Just focus on a good sound and turn up the volume knob if you want to hear it better. Then you can go to the mixing clinic and do some research and we will show you how to get the levels up. Just focus on recording without clipping.
 
I would say you've got to move the mic around until you get the tone you want. Every classical guitar is different just like every acoustic is different. Personally, my classical sounds nice with a LDC about 10" from the soundhole but slightly below, angled upwards across the soundhole. More treble, less bass but enough bass to have that sound.

Experimentation is key and what works for you, works for you.

Also, as DM60 above said. Forget volume while tracking/recording. Just get as good/clear/clean sound as you can/want. Worry about the volume later. If your mic is picking up too much room noise, turn the gain down and move closer to the mic.

:thumbs up:
 
If you go in close on a classical guitar, the tone isn't the only thing to suffer. Accomplished players make a lot of mechanical noise as their fingers brush strings and nails clip them. You start to hear all sos of clumps bumps and thumps. You will also need a nice reverb to put back the room sound, because location is very important to the music. Something like Tarrega's Alhambra sounds good even in open air, because of the fast finger work in the tremolo right hand. In a church it's a mush. Other popular pieces need the acoustics to fill in the sparser pieces. If you look and listen to the classical guitar videos on YouTube, very few have a big ugly mic in the picture.
 
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I decided to go for a distance of around 8-10inches from the guitar, using the nt1a pointed at the 12th fret (slightly pointing dowward)

I added some convulsion reverb (rooms for music - altiverb) and high passed the low end. I have stuck a limiter on the master to bring up overall level.

This is just a snippet of the guitar part thelat will be behind the vocal

Update: please note, I don't play with much nail, as my nails are pretty week I tend to concentrate my playing more around the finger tips. Compared to other CG recording i guess it lacks that brighter tone

Letw kmow whatya thing ;)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz...V9idGIybXB6VjUyZmt2RG0w/view?usp=docslist_api
 
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Remember, the nails act as a pick, which would give you a faster attack on the strings as well.

I listened, it was on headphones, so I can't really give much deep feedback. To me the levels seemed very good. You won't really know until it is put into a mix. You may also want to be careful with compression. If you feel the guitar is lacking character, you may want to look at how you are using your compression. For acoustic, knowing how to use compression is really important.

I suggest getting your levels up using some gain tool (I don't know what you have to work with), use the compression only to reduce the highest peaks (light compression with slow attack). You are just trying to tame the guitar, not squash it.

I do think the recording sounded pretty good, levels were up there, lacked some high end and body. Double check your compression and make sure you didn't over do it. But seems like you are moving in the right direction.
 
Thank you.

Just to clarify there is no compression being applied here and I'm only using one mic (nt1a) 10" from 12th fret.

With regards to your comment about nails acting as picks, this was what I was trying to get at in my previous post. My nails are just not thick enough compared to CG players I've seen. That and I find it a nightmare to maintain them. I mainly play fingerstyle on steel strung which would also be detrimental to nails, so I just play without or with thumbpicks. Having said all that I do prefer the sound of CG played with nails, more articulation and clarity I feel.

I tracked my CG in at -9db at peaks (standard gain staging) . Should I just turn up the trim pot within cubase? I assumed this would be a strong enough signal going by everything I've read relating to gain staging. Perhaps as it's only guitar and vocal I can track record at hotter levels? Rather than relying on the limiter at my master bus to bump things up...?

Does the guitar need any compression? I did apply a weak mix of sound toys decapitator, drive and mix set around 7o'clock for some tape warmth. Maybe this is acting as a compressor...? Shall I back off or leave it out altogether?

Cheers
 
I can't answer that. You have to play with it and determine what you like and don't like, so forth and so on. I think, now you have a pretty good run on a tracking session, you start learning how mic placement affects the sound, listen to the room (moving the mic out), and find your sweet spot for tracking. The sweet spot too will vary based on many different things. But I think you are off to a good start.

Here is something you can try; remove all of the processing (the sound toys stuff), do another take and move the mic to another position. Playing the same thing again. Blend the two takes together. Do this several times, listen to each one, try combinations of several takes, maybe one being more than the other or all of the tracks being equal, pan here and pan there. Listen and hear the sound of the mix. This is the art of recording, not just getting a take.

The whole beauty of recording, acoustic (or any live sound for that matter) is to capture a sound that gives the recording its voice. Experiment, that is the true joy of all of this. Not just the music, but the sound of the music. Not to be too philosophical, but it is also about the journey, not just the destination.

I hope this helps.
 
It wouldn't have occurred to me to use close mic techniques on a classical guitar - the beauty is in the dynamic range it has, so I've never even thought of using a compressor.
 
Is 10" still relatively close then?

When I've experimented with my rode m3 at 10" or more (small diaphragm condenser) it requires lots of gain on my preamp, which causes way too much noise/hiss. I'm always forced to move the m3 closer. Please don't confuse the recording in the link with the m3. The recording is the nt1a, I chose to use this in the end due to the reason I've just given, that and the fact it's nice and clean.

On another note regarding CG. If I'm recording the instrument purely solo is it common practice to track/record with a higher input level (perhaps peaking at -4) as opposed to say -10 to -12? The reason being that it doesn't have to be mixed with any other sources, which would risk the output clipping if all instruments were tracked to hot.

Tah
 
Nylon stringed acoustic guitar has always been tough for me as well. Mine is a full-size cutaway (almost dreadnought size), big and loud. I can't mic it closely at all or else it's all low end. And its really tough to put a compressor on something that's boomy because the low end makes the compressor pump.

For me personally, I found a nice spot beyond 18" away from the neck joint with an SDC. But it'd be too roomy without gobos to soak up some room reflections.

And if you're running into compressor pumping issues, try to sidechain in an EQ with a hi-pass or low shelf filter on it. That can take the rumbly low end out of the compressor's detector and just compress based on the mids and highs. I've just started messing with this myself. If it's flat-out too boomy, put the hi-pass right before the compressor and kill 2 birds with one stone.

I love compression, so compressing a nylon string guitar makes perfect sense to me (in a mix context, that is).
 
Also. Recording Nick Drake.

Interesting to see they close mic'ed the soundhole. I love nick drake's playing, his albums sound spectacular. No boomyness at all. Would this of been down to the room, or technique, e.q?

Does it matter if we mic too close? essentially we can just cut the bass right? Or do we aim to capture that low end still but in a more music way?
 
Just to add, in the first post you said that the room was relatively dead, try placing a sheet of thin ply, particle board or masonite under the area you are recording the guitar. This could open up the sound of the guitar, I always have a hard surface under the guitar & mic.

Yes 10" is still a bit close to a classical guitar, as I said before I usually try 3' (36") or 1 metre in metric. If it's a steel string acoustic that is going into a band mix I would go for about 10" to 12" miced around the 12th fret facing towards the sound hole.

Alan.
 
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