Chord Progression question???

[fraserhutch]

actually if ya want to get technical there's a lot of modal music out there... ever played a I IV V rock song with all dominant chords???? ever paly a minor blues wher the passing chord associated with the I is major but the IV is min and it's passing chord is maj???

To get technical, I don't know that I would consider the standard blues as truly modal, or at least it doesn't use a mode I'm aware of. I guess you could say it's a "blue mode", but I wouldn't automatically consider ity modal.

What do you mean "passing chord associated with the I" in a minor blues?
Are you talking about a secondary dominant as in a V of iv (again, not modal I don't think). Not sure I follow.

 

[cello_pudding]

it seems whatever board i'm on, if the simplest of music theory is asked...people go into long explanations of the deepest theory they know.

e minor. end of thread.

btw...exact same chords as eleanor rigby..which is in eminor.

 

[EddieRay]

You have to be careful though with the "first chord" or "last chord" way of thinking. There are many, many songs where the first and/or last chord is not the tonic chord.

"Landslide" is a good example of this. Many people think this song is in Eb major (because it's the first chord) or Cm (because it's the last chord played), but the song is actually in Bb major. The Eb chord at the beginning is actually a IV chord, so the progression of the verse goes like:

||: IV | I6 | ii | I6 :||

where I6 is the I chord in first inversion.

There are a lot of songs that start on IV chords and end on them too.

And, actually, I'll take your challenge and name a song where the tonic chord never gets played (or at least I think). That would be "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac (I'm really not a Fleetwood Mac freak or anything---it just so happens Stevie Nicks writes songs that work well for these demonstrations!).

If memory serves me correctly, that song, which is in A minor (or C major I guess you could argue, but I would say A minor), consists of nothing but F and G chords throughout the whole thing. No Am or C chords at all.

You're right about first/last chord; it's not a hard rule and I didn't intend to imply it was. I'm just saying that if the song feels resolved at the end, bingo!

I play "Dreams" about every weekend and always thought it as in the key of F played with wide chords. (Fmaj7 without the F is Am.) Since I play bass I never needed to know the full chords. But maybe that's why even final F chord doesn't feel resolved.

 

[fraserhutch]

it seems whatever board i'm on, if the simplest of music theory is asked...people go into long explanations of the deepest theory they know.

e minor. end of thread.

btw...exact same chords as eleanor rigby..which is in eminor.

Man, sorry if you think that's deep theory.....

 

[famous beagle]

it seems whatever board i'm on, if the simplest of music theory is asked...people go into long explanations of the deepest theory they know.

e minor. end of thread.

btw...exact same chords as eleanor rigby..which is in eminor.

There's no Am in "Eleanor Rigby," though, and that's the only thing that really suggested it could possibly be a key other than Em. I still definitely think it's Em, but my point is you can't say for sure without hearing the song. But with all the clues he gave, Em certainly seems by far the most likely.

 

[famous beagle]

You're right about first/last chord; it's not a hard rule and I didn't intend to imply it was. I'm just saying that if the song feels resolved at the end, bingo!

I play "Dreams" about every weekend and always thought it as in the key of F played with wide chords. (Fmaj7 without the F is Am.) Since I play bass I never needed to know the full chords. But maybe that's why even final F chord doesn't feel resolved.

Yeah well one clue right off that should let you know it's not in F major is the G major chord. In F major, G would be a minor chord.

When you have two major chords right next to each other, the only place those can fit, diatonically that is, is as IV and V in a major key or bVI and bVII in a minor key.

 

[dafduc]

Puhleeze. Can anyone think of any example songs in a key where the root chord does not get played?

Yweah, there's some Elton John song that does a ii7-V ad nauseum. Come to think of it, Fleetwod Mac's Dreams does something like that too, except it's IV-V - it does get to a vi in the guitar break, but never to a I.

 

[dafduc]

You're right about first/last chord; it's not a hard rule and I didn't intend to imply it was. I'm just saying that if the song feels resolved at the end, bingo!

I play "Dreams" about every weekend and always thought it as in the key of F played with wide chords. (Fmaj7 without the F is Am.) Since I play bass I never needed to know the full chords. But maybe that's why even final F chord doesn't feel resolved.

Ha - I posted without reading this.

It's the key of C - that's why the F doesn't sound final. And why there's a B instead of a Bb in the melody, and a G chord (which doesn't exist in the key of F).

 

[dementedchord]

To get technical, I don't know that I would consider the standard blues as truly modal, or at least it doesn't use a mode I'm aware of. I guess you could say it's a "blue mode", but I wouldn't automatically consider ity modal.

What do you mean "passing chord associated with the I" in a minor blues?
Are you talking about a secondary dominant as in a V of iv (again, not modal I don't think). Not sure I follow.

granted the blues isn't in any of the "standard" modes if your limiting it to the 7 regular ones ... but as much as they dont fit into a single key and can be adressed by the "blues scale" as a whole or treated as 3 separate V7 chords each a "mode" in it's self... it qualifies for me....

as to the min blues... it's not unusual to play the min I and then pass to another voicing by use of a Maj IV where one might expect a min IV and then get the min IV at it's regular point... ie. Cmin voiced CEbG CFA CGBb where the F is on beat 4.... then when you expect to go to the IV it's in min...Fmin voiced FAbC FBbD FCEb.... in both cases they're a dorian function...

 

[Freddy]

Why do I get a recurring image of Rockabilly1955 standing just outside the door to this thread with a grenade pin dangling from his finger and a smile playing on his lips?

 

[fraserhutch]

Again, in the case of the blues, it's not modal in the traditional sense of the word.

A lot of jazz and non-pop music change keys often, as does a LOT of pop, and I wouldn't consider any of them modal.

The use of temporary key changes has nothing to do with modal music. For example, classical music (Mozart, and Beethoven) temporarily "change keys" all the time. Mozart was a expert at prolonging cadences to the dominat by use of secondary dominants.

Mainstream jazz and bop also make much use of passing ii-V, tritone substitutons, etc. I wouldn't call them modal. The fact that you have substituted a chord here and there doesn't really change the blues, it just adds flavour.

Anyways, I suspect we're not talking the same thing at all, so I'll leave it at that. Didn't mean to hijack this thread.

granted the blues isn't in any of the "standard" modes if your limiting it to the 7 regular ones ... but as much as they dont fit into a single key and can be adressed by the "blues scale" as a whole or treated as 3 separate V7 chords each a "mode" in it's self... it qualifies for me....

as to the min blues... it's not unusual to play the min I and then pass to another voicing by use of a Maj IV where one might expect a min IV and then get the min IV at it's regular point... ie. Cmin voiced CEbG CFA CGBb where the F is on beat 4.... then when you expect to go to the IV it's in min...Fmin voiced FAbC FBbD FCEb.... in both cases they're a dorian function...

 

[cello_pudding]

it seems whatever board i'm on, if the simplest of music theory is asked...people go into long explanations of the deepest theory they know.

Man, sorry if you think that's deep theory.....

the question is asked by a beginner. he asked a simple question, and gave very simple chords. people went into modes, bop jazz, etc...just to feed their ego.

 

[famous beagle]

the question is asked by a beginner. he asked a simple question, and gave very simple chords. people went into modes, bop jazz, etc...just to feed their ego.

I honestly wasn't trying to feed my ego. It's a bit of a personal thing for me because I work for Hal Leonard, and I come across old editions of books where songs have the wrong key signature because the song may begin or end on a different chord than the tonic. "Landslide" is a good example. There's a book that's out now that has the song notated in the key of Eb (the starting chord), when it's really in the key of Bb, and the first chord is a IV chord.

So I'm kind of on a personal crusade to make people realize there's more to the key of a song than just what chord it begins or ends on.

 

[dementedchord]

the question is asked by a beginner. he asked a simple question, and gave very simple chords. people went into modes, bop jazz, etc...just to feed their ego.

wrong again kemoslobby... some of us actually think it's important to know such things and helping someone better understand can contribute to THEIR music and is thanx enough not about ego here...

fraser i think we're closer than you might think... i just find it stiltifiying to limit the deffinition of modality... ie in the min blues example the fact that it's 2 examples of ii-V's and seen as temporary keychanges by you doesnt change the fact that they are both to me dorian... the temporariness seems irrelevent... but it's all good...

"So I'm kind of on a personal crusade to make people realize there's more to the key of a song than just what chord it begins or ends on."

rant on beagle...btw what exactlly do you do for leonard??? iv'e got bits and peices of a thory book scattered around here...

 

[fraserhutch]

the question is asked by a beginner. he asked a simple question, and gave very simple chords. people went into modes, bop jazz, etc...just to feed their ego.

This is a DISCUSSION board. We are having a discussion. A remarkably civilized one at that.

Don't like it? Don't read it.

 

[XLR]

hey all...... what key would this progression be considered?? Em, Am, and C major?? I believe it to be the key of Em, but some seem to also say the key of G major??? thanks guys

The verbal description here isn't enough. Could be a lot of things. The way the song emphasizes the tonal center is the crucial thing re tonality (key).
OK, I'm curious. If you want a real answer post an mp3 of of the song.

 

[famous beagle]

wrong again kemoslobby... some of us actually think it's important to know such things and helping someone better understand can contribute to THEIR music and is thanx enough not about ego here...

fraser i think we're closer than you might think... i just find it stiltifiying to limit the deffinition of modality... ie in the min blues example the fact that it's 2 examples of ii-V's and seen as temporary keychanges by you doesnt change the fact that they are both to me dorian... the temporariness seems irrelevent... but it's all good...

"So I'm kind of on a personal crusade to make people realize there's more to the key of a song than just what chord it begins or ends on."

rant on beagle...btw what exactlly do you do for leonard??? iv'e got bits and peices of a thory book scattered around here...

I freelanced for them down in TX from 2000 to 2006. During that time I edited and wrote a lot of books for them. Now I've moved up to Milwaukee and work in-house as a pulications editor. I wouldn't be the one to decide on whether to publish your book or not, but my boss would be and I could get it into his hands.

 

[cello_pudding]

oh so that's why rockabilly has learned so much and come back to keep discussing modes and jazz theory?

it's this way in many theory threads on different boards.

every time...q:"what is a sharp?" a:"let me tell you about modes and sharp 9 chords, and augmented sixths, and i'll just blurt out anything remotely related"

anyways...if you're all talking about modes, then that would make it pretty much just shared knowledge. there is no explanation of what a mode is. thats leaving the original poster in the dark.

not a very inclusive discussion is it?

i believe demented is simply talking about a i IV Idom7no3, which functions as the V7/IV...going to the iv and doing the same pattern, which because of the major 4, it has a Dorian feel.

 

[cello_pudding]

side note: -rep doesn't really make me feel bad.

 

[famous beagle]

oh so that's why rockabilly has learned so much and come back to keep discussing modes and jazz theory?

it's this way in many theory threads on different boards.

every time...q:"what is a sharp?" a:"let me tell you about modes and sharp 9 chords, and augmented sixths, and i'll just blurt out anything remotely related"

anyways...if you're all talking about modes, then that would make it pretty much just shared knowledge. there is no explanation of what a mode is. thats leaving the original poster in the dark.

not a very inclusive discussion is it?

i believe demented is simply talking about a i IV Idom7no3, which functions as the V7/IV...going to the iv and doing the same pattern, which because of the major 4, it has a Dorian feel.

It's no big deal, cello. We're just having a discussion. No one's been invited or excluded. It's just people talking about theory and/or keys.

Anyway, on a side note, I like most of your tunes. I think you've got a cool voice.