CoolCat
Well-known member
now that sounds like a punk rock nursing home! I Wanna Be Sedated anyone?
E
ecc83
Well-known member
I would expect a high tech Co like Telefunken to have all their CNC data on their servers and we know how good the Chinese are at hacking other people's data! Thus they might just be able to dump the design info straight into their CNC machines and 3D printers?
Handbooks would of course be a doddle! It would seem "The Rest of the World" is just one big technical resource to China?
Dave.
R
R D Smith
It's as good as it is, for as long as it lasts.
There is no such thing as intellectual property in CN. If any of the parts are made in CN, they don't have to hack anything. The info is already there and available.
rob aylestone
Moderator
Oddly, they do actually have copyright legislation. They just routinely ignore it. I had a few useful products, then tried to order more and they had crossed a line, breaking one of their own laws. Our frequencies in the UK happen to be used by their military. The factory was banned from producing any more.
If anyone supplies the factory in china with a CNC file, its not considered private. Same with injection moulding. If the manufacturer makes 1000 products for a customer, and another customer wants the same thing, they make them. Motorola and Icom, both companies based in other countries have products made in china. Once the models are discontinued, they expect the plants to stop making them. They dont, or at least, they keep the tooling. Remember those radios that blew up some bad guys? The manufacturers could not tell if they were genuine old ones, or unofficial ones that sell on aliexpress. They got called counterfeit, or fakes, but they are 100% the same product, just being sold direct from the factory who have all the parts. The resl manufacturers struggle to justify ‘fake’, the best is perhaps ‘unauthorised’. Having both, i can actually tell the difference. The colour of the plastic has a slightly different colour, but you need an original to tell!
If anyone supplies the factory in china with a CNC file, its not considered private. Same with injection moulding. If the manufacturer makes 1000 products for a customer, and another customer wants the same thing, they make them. Motorola and Icom, both companies based in other countries have products made in china. Once the models are discontinued, they expect the plants to stop making them. They dont, or at least, they keep the tooling. Remember those radios that blew up some bad guys? The manufacturers could not tell if they were genuine old ones, or unofficial ones that sell on aliexpress. They got called counterfeit, or fakes, but they are 100% the same product, just being sold direct from the factory who have all the parts. The resl manufacturers struggle to justify ‘fake’, the best is perhaps ‘unauthorised’. Having both, i can actually tell the difference. The colour of the plastic has a slightly different colour, but you need an original to tell!
CoolCat
Well-known member
My understanding reading about mics is China is the main hub of body's, headbaskets...even for pricier cloners and more.
Sennheiser and Neumann, Rode, are couple who make it all in house, its almost refreshing to hear these days.
The legal thing would be hard, for say Headbasket copy's, where Neumann Lawyers can stop WARM Audio or GoToToolz and Rode NT2 on the 87 /67 Headbasket shape but China doesn't seem to care about being sued and makes them all year long.
Like Rob said already, China probably doesn't really care and ignores the Lawyers, China business probably only worry's about being tossed in their own prisons by their Govt.
(I wonder why, if the 67/87 headbasket is copyright protected, why wasn't the U47 body an headbasket? )
As for stealing information I think most US company's handed all that details and schematics to China. One job I had , turned into me shipping boxes of technology papers and parts, to Taiwan for a couple years! as the company offshored to Taiwan and closed the US factory. Oddly it was a American / Korean owned company in Taiwan...lol
crazy the shell games played. Of course the management told everyone in the factory "they will only be doing our overflow work" which is a common lie when offshoring the factory. The only thing left is a small group who do QC on the foundry, keeping them honest....because the foundry gets money off parts shipped, so QC failing parts reduces the foundrys income....I heard stories the foundry was caught de-calibrating tools so everything passed !! and more parts shipped!! and then the parts were sent to the End User who installed the parts in their TV's and the TV;s were failing and being returned.. I saw recently they are now moving the company to US 20yrs later (China attacking Taiwan threats I suppose-.
house of cards , QC unknown. ...what if the product was foundried from the US to Taiwan for a Korean company who then moves the Korean company to US soil, does it become a US product again? lol
Sennheiser and Neumann, Rode, are couple who make it all in house, its almost refreshing to hear these days.
The legal thing would be hard, for say Headbasket copy's, where Neumann Lawyers can stop WARM Audio or GoToToolz and Rode NT2 on the 87 /67 Headbasket shape but China doesn't seem to care about being sued and makes them all year long.
Like Rob said already, China probably doesn't really care and ignores the Lawyers, China business probably only worry's about being tossed in their own prisons by their Govt.
(I wonder why, if the 67/87 headbasket is copyright protected, why wasn't the U47 body an headbasket? )
As for stealing information I think most US company's handed all that details and schematics to China. One job I had , turned into me shipping boxes of technology papers and parts, to Taiwan for a couple years! as the company offshored to Taiwan and closed the US factory. Oddly it was a American / Korean owned company in Taiwan...lol
crazy the shell games played. Of course the management told everyone in the factory "they will only be doing our overflow work" which is a common lie when offshoring the factory. The only thing left is a small group who do QC on the foundry, keeping them honest....because the foundry gets money off parts shipped, so QC failing parts reduces the foundrys income....I heard stories the foundry was caught de-calibrating tools so everything passed !! and more parts shipped!! and then the parts were sent to the End User who installed the parts in their TV's and the TV;s were failing and being returned.. I saw recently they are now moving the company to US 20yrs later (China attacking Taiwan threats I suppose-.
house of cards , QC unknown. ...what if the product was foundried from the US to Taiwan for a Korean company who then moves the Korean company to US soil, does it become a US product again? lol
TalismanRich
Well-known member
I suspect if you are simply making a headbasket and body, without any internals, Neumann might have trouble bringing suit on trademark infringement anyway, since you're not really selling a microphone. Sell them to DIYers, who can then add a capsule and circuit board as they please. Make a enough of an adjustment so that it's not an exact copy and you can be clear.
Rode is one of the few new companies that brought things inhouse so that they have control over every part. They also automate as much as possible so they keep costs under control (robots don't ask for annual raises or retirement). They are confident enough in their processes that they offer a 10 yr warranty, which is far more than most. I've been very happy with my NT1 and M5s. A friend has an NTK that he uses for vocals.
I still find it somewhat funny that people dump on Rode as "cheap Chinese microphones". They probably complained about those cheap junky Japanese cassette decks that Nakamichi made too!
Rode is one of the few new companies that brought things inhouse so that they have control over every part. They also automate as much as possible so they keep costs under control (robots don't ask for annual raises or retirement). They are confident enough in their processes that they offer a 10 yr warranty, which is far more than most. I've been very happy with my NT1 and M5s. A friend has an NTK that he uses for vocals.
I still find it somewhat funny that people dump on Rode as "cheap Chinese microphones". They probably complained about those cheap junky Japanese cassette decks that Nakamichi made too!
rob aylestone
Moderator
I suspect one problem has been that the Chinese have also been making very good products for other manufacturers for a very long time that got rebadged - the original meaning of OEM. I note recently some very expensive japanese products are now available from sellers in China. Sony professional video products - that cost upwards of thirty grand now available for less than £1000/$1000. Clearly, nobody is going to set up the kinds of production equipment to make this kind of stuff for budget money, so the question is - where did they come from? My guess is they were made in China, quietly, to be sold to the broadcasters and professionals for serious money badged as Japanese. The models seem to have all been discontinued 5 years ago, so maybe surplus stock was embargoed, and now released? It's tempting to buy one, but just too much to spend on a whim?
CoolCat
Well-known member
China making better stuff over the decades, makes sense.
Its common sense the ones "doing the work" become the experts, the ones making the parts become the skilled.
The business side people have that perspective. Usually profits...
But then the cost-cutters, even create fake WIMA's and Fake everything so? Are foundry mics with WIMA for example, real WIMA?
It gets to a point a person doesnt even know what they are buying.
For me, it becomes like buying a print of a original work, thats cool.....but sometimes there are originals that pop up, like Chandler Limited, or the AustiaAudio OC818..RODE going all in house....refreshing to at least feel like I know what I bought.
I enjoy the WARMBEESKNEEZPELUSOGAPGTZHEISERMANADVANCEDAUDIONUDETELEFUNKENDACHMANFLEAVINTAGEKINDKIWARAUNITEDSTUDIOTEMUALIBABAWAGNERADKPEARLMANBOCK3U and all cloners too- using decent back ground studying of a Neumann U47 tube or a U47 Fet....
Its common sense the ones "doing the work" become the experts, the ones making the parts become the skilled.
The business side people have that perspective. Usually profits...
But then the cost-cutters, even create fake WIMA's and Fake everything so? Are foundry mics with WIMA for example, real WIMA?
It gets to a point a person doesnt even know what they are buying.
For me, it becomes like buying a print of a original work, thats cool.....but sometimes there are originals that pop up, like Chandler Limited, or the AustiaAudio OC818..RODE going all in house....refreshing to at least feel like I know what I bought.
I enjoy the WARMBEESKNEEZPELUSOGAPGTZHEISERMANADVANCEDAUDIONUDETELEFUNKENDACHMANFLEAVINTAGEKINDKIWARAUNITEDSTUDIOTEMUALIBABAWAGNERADKPEARLMANBOCK3U and all cloners too- using decent back ground studying of a Neumann U47 tube or a U47 Fet....
P
polarity
Member
I'm late responding, but I was just having this conversation the other day. It seems we are only ever a few years away from brands that were a joke becoming the norm. It wasn't that long ago (I guess it was, but I'm old) that Kia the car company was a joke in the USA. No one wanted them, they were purchased as a last resort when you had to have something and didn't have money for a "real" car. Now there are tons of people who want a Kia. Same thing happened with Behringer. They were making cheap knock off crap, I guess maybe they sold enough to get their funds up and now people just regard them as a normal brand. It feels like it almost happens over night, like yesterday everyone hated Behringer and then today the x32 is great and people would kill for it. I haven't figured out if their quality is going up or our standards are going down.
TalismanRich
Well-known member
Ha! I remember when Subaru had a car, the 360, that you couldn't give away. There were thousands imported, but they didn't sell. Consumer Reports gave them a "Not Acceptable" rating. It had a 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine and suicide doors. You didn't want to get hit in one. Zero to 50 times were over a half minute! That's not good for hitting the merge lane at rush hour.
Then the 74 oil embargo hit. The 360 got 35 to 40mpg vs most US car at 12-15mpg, and those cars that had sat for a year or two went like hotcakes for about $12-1500. They were still junk but served a purpose for a short time.
Then you have the Yugo.... take a Fiat and half ass things to make it more unreliable. One interesting fact is that both the Subaru 360 and the Yugo were imported by Malcolm Bricklin who also built his own car, the SV-1 gull wing sports car.
Today, Subaru has very good ratings for safety and makes some innovative vehicles.
A company can shed a bad reputation if they continually improve their products.
Then the 74 oil embargo hit. The 360 got 35 to 40mpg vs most US car at 12-15mpg, and those cars that had sat for a year or two went like hotcakes for about $12-1500. They were still junk but served a purpose for a short time.
Then you have the Yugo.... take a Fiat and half ass things to make it more unreliable. One interesting fact is that both the Subaru 360 and the Yugo were imported by Malcolm Bricklin who also built his own car, the SV-1 gull wing sports car.
Today, Subaru has very good ratings for safety and makes some innovative vehicles.
A company can shed a bad reputation if they continually improve their products.
rob aylestone
Moderator
When you start to build relationships with the sellers over there, you start to get access to more stuff. Pretty much anything is available - my contacts are essentially an office and a small workshop space. The other day, I noticed in one list, behringer P16 personal mixers and the mic stand brackets. Got a price quoted for some P16's then two hours later a cancellation - they were no longer available, but they could supply the brackets. I suspect the factory front door has stock coming out to go to behringer, but the rear door has the same items going out to people like my supplier.
CoolCat
Well-known member
Great example, the Kia....they became something more than the "cheapest" line.
Behringer. quality went up imo..
KT76 was $145!!! and it sounds great! The KT2A was fun too, enough reviews done that its a great piece..
Id vote they've come up in Nice products today. Interfaces, ADA...were they doing sketchy stuff at first ? Yes.
China became synonymous with "the cheap line" right ? or worse?
Now they have improved their image, imo, once the Cloners all admit their stuff is made with China stuff. Most are attempts at copying Neumann classics. 3U capsules, Studio Projects mics, etc...MXL has some great mics,...so Warm Audio...made in China ....great stuff.
Do I want a Chinese SM57 for $30? or a real SM57 made in China for $99? (sarcasm)
I suppose if Chinas no-name brands can keep improving, like a Telefunken copy that is at a Warm Audio level of quality...Rob will find it.
When I look at Ali and Temu its such a sheet mess of crap and confusion I feel like my laptops being infected with virus;'s or something...Id recommend using a VPN to shop there.
Behringer. quality went up imo..
KT76 was $145!!! and it sounds great! The KT2A was fun too, enough reviews done that its a great piece..
Id vote they've come up in Nice products today. Interfaces, ADA...were they doing sketchy stuff at first ? Yes.
China became synonymous with "the cheap line" right ? or worse?
Now they have improved their image, imo, once the Cloners all admit their stuff is made with China stuff. Most are attempts at copying Neumann classics. 3U capsules, Studio Projects mics, etc...MXL has some great mics,...so Warm Audio...made in China ....great stuff.
Do I want a Chinese SM57 for $30? or a real SM57 made in China for $99? (sarcasm)
I suppose if Chinas no-name brands can keep improving, like a Telefunken copy that is at a Warm Audio level of quality...Rob will find it.
When I look at Ali and Temu its such a sheet mess of crap and confusion I feel like my laptops being infected with virus;'s or something...Id recommend using a VPN to shop there.
CoolCat
Well-known member
I looked at this link again. $600 for the Alibaba is a No Deal for me.
...unknown parts, unknown everything....Alibaba& Temu remind me of a night market in Taiwan. Tables of bootlegged cheap merchandise with a fun- but sketchy arena, no warrantys of course. What would a person pay for a Alibaba mic?
$99? $200? $300? I bought a couple fake watches but they were cheap and never worn, more of a souvenir.
At $600 price, first thing I thought of was WarmAudio WA251 BStock - with Cinemag Transformers, top components, and the Warm Australian capsules - (AI says Beesknees capsules hmm?) all the goodies and Warms new standard 5 year warranty. Used even cheaper.
warmaudio.com
aliexpress mic
...unknown parts, unknown everything....Alibaba& Temu remind me of a night market in Taiwan. Tables of bootlegged cheap merchandise with a fun- but sketchy arena, no warrantys of course. What would a person pay for a Alibaba mic?
$99? $200? $300? I bought a couple fake watches but they were cheap and never worn, more of a souvenir.
At $600 price, first thing I thought of was WarmAudio WA251 BStock - with Cinemag Transformers, top components, and the Warm Australian capsules - (AI says Beesknees capsules hmm?) all the goodies and Warms new standard 5 year warranty. Used even cheaper.
Warm Audio WA-251 ELA M 251-Style Microphone
Warm Audio accurately recreates the classic recording gear that has delivered music's biggest hits. We believe that legendary sound should be within reach for every musician.
warmaudio.com
aliexpress mic
rob aylestone
Moderator
Alibaba and aliexpress are VERY different. Aliexpress does have a degree of security, in most cases you will get a refund f it doesnt turn up, and it clearly states returns are accepted. You need due dilligence. Alibaba is different because you negotiate, agree and then if you pay through alibaba, you get a form of escrow. There is some protection. However, many adverts are speculative and simply a con. Products that simply dont exists. If I see something on alibaba, using a behringer P16 mixer as an example, i ask them for a delivered price and stock availability. In this example i asked for a price for 6, delivered to me in the UK. I got a very cheap price, which rang alarm bells as the shipping is based on weight and can easily be 100 USD or more to the UK. I said great, please send me an alibaba payment request. As expected, the next message was a request for my whatsapp details. I responded and again, they spun the story that they prefer iban payment direct to reduce alibaba fees, and of course the escrow element. I reply with please adjust your price to use the alibaba system. They never responded. The stock didn’t exist. The dialogue triggers alibaba’s system, sending my request to other sellers with this product. Three responded, happy to supply through alibaba, but NONE could actually get stock. The ads are speculative. Advertise items people might want, find customer, then find stock, or not!
On the other hand you find sellers willing to customise products and fall over backwards. I have mentioned it before, but i wanted a stereo large diaphragm multi pattern mic, like the neumann old sm-69. I sent a seller who had multi-pattern mics some photos and asked if they had this kind of thing. They said they could make them for me, subject to me buying 5. They were amazing, and hand built. I kept one, sold four. I did need to send them the payment in advance, which was a fair bit of money. I transferred it to a chinese bank. Totally unrecoverable. It was a huge risk, but i have a system. Never do this if you cannot afford to lose it if it goes wrong. It would have been a lot to lose, but not borrowed money, savings. It worked. You just have to decide. It is no different from buying from your own country from somebody with a PO box address who wants payment by something impossible to recover, or buying something expensive from a market stall or car boot sale, with cash.
There are crooks. At the end of the day, you have to take a risk sometimes to get something? For what it is worth, temu can be a great source. I buy guitar hard cases from them because aliexpress shipping for them is now 50usd at least. Temu have free delivery - at the moment. They do not have a good refund system at all. Delivery does not have to be confirmed. On aliexpress the seller does not get paid till you say it arrived and is ok. Just remember that these mics are to the seller, just cardboard boxes. Often they have never ever plugged one in!
On the other hand you find sellers willing to customise products and fall over backwards. I have mentioned it before, but i wanted a stereo large diaphragm multi pattern mic, like the neumann old sm-69. I sent a seller who had multi-pattern mics some photos and asked if they had this kind of thing. They said they could make them for me, subject to me buying 5. They were amazing, and hand built. I kept one, sold four. I did need to send them the payment in advance, which was a fair bit of money. I transferred it to a chinese bank. Totally unrecoverable. It was a huge risk, but i have a system. Never do this if you cannot afford to lose it if it goes wrong. It would have been a lot to lose, but not borrowed money, savings. It worked. You just have to decide. It is no different from buying from your own country from somebody with a PO box address who wants payment by something impossible to recover, or buying something expensive from a market stall or car boot sale, with cash.
There are crooks. At the end of the day, you have to take a risk sometimes to get something? For what it is worth, temu can be a great source. I buy guitar hard cases from them because aliexpress shipping for them is now 50usd at least. Temu have free delivery - at the moment. They do not have a good refund system at all. Delivery does not have to be confirmed. On aliexpress the seller does not get paid till you say it arrived and is ok. Just remember that these mics are to the seller, just cardboard boxes. Often they have never ever plugged one in!
CoolCat
Well-known member
Interesting I never dealt with them and hesitant to give them my creditcard numbers.
I ship something to Taiwan PO Box often and the cost has doubled recently, but for me its only $35 now $70. Im not doing large amounts.
From US to Taiwan. I haven't gotten any extra charges in Taiwan for tariff -shipping that I know of.
FedEx, UPS, wont ship to PO Boxes so Im forced to use US Post Office system who will ship to PO Boxes.
Alibaba isn't Aliexpress, I didn't know all that but its sounds sketchy-high risk.
AMAZON gets enough of my money and to be honest I recently got ripped off with Amazon 3rd Party seller from China, so not a good experience there.
They took my cash order and simply didn't send the product and then they closed their Online Shop!!!
I complained to Amazon, they haven't done anything yet. They told me the Store has been deleted and so basically they opened a fake shop, posted product, I paid for it, then they closed shop and deleted the Amazon account. My part was $150 approx...I don't recall...but I think did they do this to 10,000 customers?
Amazon isn't sending the FBI after the fake business.
Warm Audio seems to have a business where they source the parts from all over and the item is built in China then shipped to Texas factory. (and per the video "every piece" is checked out.) Then the recent 5 yr warranty ...up from 1 or 3yr warranty. Shipping costs and any Tariffs could effect a business like that I suppose, as in Shipping cost taking the profits. I suppose this might be a common Cloner-business approach? MXL has been doing it a long time it seems they worked out the bugs. I don't know maybe 1000 Microphone business's doing this now.?
I suppose with so many cloner's doing business in China, they know how to build all the mics and copy the "classics". The factory making the shells and headbaskets will sell to anyone... I don't know. BUYER BEWARE on Reverb and MusicGoRound, Sweetwater, Guitar center....I don't think Chinas copying MXL and Warm Audio yet are they? LOL
I ship something to Taiwan PO Box often and the cost has doubled recently, but for me its only $35 now $70. Im not doing large amounts.
From US to Taiwan. I haven't gotten any extra charges in Taiwan for tariff -shipping that I know of.
FedEx, UPS, wont ship to PO Boxes so Im forced to use US Post Office system who will ship to PO Boxes.
Alibaba isn't Aliexpress, I didn't know all that but its sounds sketchy-high risk.
AMAZON gets enough of my money and to be honest I recently got ripped off with Amazon 3rd Party seller from China, so not a good experience there.
They took my cash order and simply didn't send the product and then they closed their Online Shop!!!
I complained to Amazon, they haven't done anything yet. They told me the Store has been deleted and so basically they opened a fake shop, posted product, I paid for it, then they closed shop and deleted the Amazon account. My part was $150 approx...I don't recall...but I think did they do this to 10,000 customers?
Amazon isn't sending the FBI after the fake business.
Warm Audio seems to have a business where they source the parts from all over and the item is built in China then shipped to Texas factory. (and per the video "every piece" is checked out.) Then the recent 5 yr warranty ...up from 1 or 3yr warranty. Shipping costs and any Tariffs could effect a business like that I suppose, as in Shipping cost taking the profits. I suppose this might be a common Cloner-business approach? MXL has been doing it a long time it seems they worked out the bugs. I don't know maybe 1000 Microphone business's doing this now.?
I suppose with so many cloner's doing business in China, they know how to build all the mics and copy the "classics". The factory making the shells and headbaskets will sell to anyone... I don't know. BUYER BEWARE on Reverb and MusicGoRound, Sweetwater, Guitar center....I don't think Chinas copying MXL and Warm Audio yet are they? LOL
