Cheap mics for solo violin

[mshilarious]

the dpas are worth a years worth of nights on the town!

In Cleveland, that might be true! Especially at a DavidK concert!

 

[XLR]

Where the hell is David anyway?

Hey David, what mic's do they usually use on you in the studio?

And in the concert hall?




Hello?...


is this thing on?...

 

[dgatwood]

that last statement is incorrect and really misguided.

I think the point was that when it comes to room acoustics, no pickup pattern can salvage a bad room with lots of reflections because they come from everywhere, not just behind the mic. You're right, of course, that it can help make a palatable recording in a room that's just so-so, but so can pickups, close miking, blankets, carpet, etc. As you said, it's all about using whatever tools are at your disposal to make it work even if the situation is less than ideal.

In the case of this discussion, of course, you're talking about presumably good sounding rooms, so this is largely moot.

I do agree that the analogy isn't very good, though. Using polar pattern to combat bad room acoustics is more like wearing a waterproof swim cap to protect you from a flood. Sure, it will keep the top of your head dry, but you'll still get soaked.

 

[mshilarious]

Where the hell is David anyway?

Hey David, what mic's do they usually use on you in the studio?

He was on the similar thread the OP started in Newbies. For his upcoming CD, he said they used Schoeps.

 

[bigtoe]

well as long as you're talking omnis and DPAs, on the used market you can get the 4006's for one night in a (really good) strip club. (ok- really really good strip club.) i found mine for 550. insanely nice mic...rarely used of late.

really really really good strip club.

Mike

 

[XLR]

Ummmmm....


What?

 

[mshilarious]

Ummmmm....


What?

Johnsons . . . strip clubs . . . it's pretty much a Cave thread at this point

 

[apl]

that last statement is incorrect and really misguided.

as far as the frighteningly bad analogy...even if it were apppropriate...you got a bad gig where the "roof is leaking" and the artist wants it done anyway...get whatever you need to get the job done...wetsuit, cardioids, omnis, set yourself on fire, whatever, do it... or don't get the gig the next time. that's your choice...

i regularly set up bands on top of each other and without directional mics, the gig would not fly. i used to regularly set up mics in front of solo violinists and the like in acceptible environments but still not good enough conditions for omnis...if they were omnis i wouldn't have been working long.

as far as the omni mic manufacturer backing it up... you seem like a wiser cat than that...think higher.

the dpas are worth a years worth of nights on the town!

Mike

Are you talkin' live or recording? And are you making a hypothetical scenario where the customer demands to recorded in the dorm shower?

 

[DavidK]

Where the hell is David anyway?

Hey David, what mic's do they usually use on you in the studio?

And in the concert hall?




Hello?...


is this thing on?...

Here I yam, thanks for the invite!

For his upcoming CD, he said they used Schoeps.

Correct. Recently I have made some recordings where they used AT4051s. In the past its been AKG 414s, Neumann KM184s, etc.

 

[mshilarious]

Since everybody loves Alan Hyatt these days, I thought I'd take this chance to plug his C4:

Excellent performance as cardioid mics
As a cardioid (pressure gradient) microphone, the C4 provides excellent pickup of on-axis sources while attenuating extraneous sound occurring from around and behind the mic. This makes it ideal for close miking of individual instruments where bleed from other nearby instruments or sound is undesirable. The C4 cardioids also make excellent stereo pairs for coincident and near-coincident miking techniques such as X-Y and ORTF. Additionally the C4s are quite useful on a drum kit as overheads and on toms.

Omni mode is great for ambience, overhead use, and instrument miking
Change to the omnidirectional (pressure) capsules and the C4 offers a warm tonal response and is recommended especially for close miking in favorable acoustical environments. There is very little off-axis coloration owing to the inherent physical properties of pressure capsules. This, combined with the low self-noise of the mic amplifier, makes the C4 omni an excellent ambience mic - especially in pairs. In a good room, a pair of C4 omnis can provide a vibrant and live feel to recordings, which is not achievable through the use of directional microphones.

 

[bigtoe]

Are you talkin' live or recording? And are you making a hypothetical scenario where the customer demands to recorded in the dorm shower?

live, recording, recording live, and live recording.

no hypothetical's at all. i deal with real situations 25-30 hours a week. i go remote anywhere and make it work.

no dorm room shower - but one ugly one i remember was in the chicago public library with the chicago chamber orchestra. i guess they dug the room. the acoustics were horrible as the reflections were really snappy. i don't remember how but it came together...but it came together with 81's instead of 414's omni or otherwise...may have had some MG296's as well...i do not recall.
regardless - i was a hired gun and did the gig...i didn't ask for a better room.

these days - i record regularly in people's houses...which have their own kinda ugly.

"In a good room, a pair of C4 omnis can provide a vibrant and live feel to recordings, which is not achievable through the use of directional microphones."

bad marketing aimed at those armed with very little knowledge and experience.

4051's - underrated mics!

Mike

 

[mshilarious]

bad marketing aimed at those armed with very little knowledge and experience.

Yeah, wow, you're so right. In fact, DPA has no idea what they are talking about, either:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=25

We strongly recommend to always make a habit of trying an omni first! It will often give a more natural sound, it can handle extremely high sound pressure levels, it does not suffer from proximity effect and is not that sensitive to wind, pop or handling noise!

 

[DavidK]

but one ugly one i remember was in the chicago public library with the chicago chamber orchestra.

HA! I used to play with them. I think it was in the old library, not the big red one? I remember a big dome in the room.

 

[bigtoe]

HA! I used to play with them. I think it was in the old library, not the big red one? I remember a big dome in the room.

Yep! i have no idea what that was about. It was beautiful but man it was weird...like recording in a rotunda!

Mike

 

[bigtoe]

Yeah, wow, you're so right. In fact, DPA has no idea what they are talking about, either:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/page.php?PID=25

i agree with your statement as if there were no sarcasm. bad marketing...or just a too short of a "soundbite" mean anything at all in the context you're trying to put it in. how much time does the person have? what are they recording? where are they recording?

as a mic manufacturer - you should really learn how to speak for yourself and not use other folks to sell your product...particularly in the way you're doing it. it's in bad taste and and it's misleading. i have both omni's and the 4011's...i can tell you in my world...the 4011's get used more often.

i agree - omni's can rule. however an omni mic manufacturer and his online groupthinkers pushing/defending them as if they are the superior in the application asked is more than questionable. class it up.

Mike

 

[DavidK]

Yep! i have no idea what that was about. It was beautiful but man it was weird...like recording in a rotunda!

Mike

Are you recording any classical gigs in the Cleveland area?

 

[apl]

i agree - omni's can rule. however an omni mic manufacturer and his online groupthinkers pushing/defending them as if they are the superior in the application asked is more than questionable. class it up.

Mike

OK, I went back to check the original question.

I'm looking to get a stereo pair of mics to record solo violin stuff in all sorts of venues, churches for example.

Still sounds like a good pair of omnis to me.

And the Naiants are good pairs of omnis at a good price.

Are they the only choice? Nope. Lots of ways to skin that cat.

 

[mshilarious]

i agree - omni's can rule. however an omni mic manufacturer and his online groupthinkers pushing/defending them as if they are the superior in the application asked is more than questionable. class it up.

Your reading comprehension skills are very limited. First, note my first post on this thread: it had nothing to do with my microphones, or with omnidirectional microphones at all. I was correcting a factual, technical error you made in describing the physical properties of diaphragm size.

I advised you to read Harvey's big thread to learn more about such matters, and you gave me a flippant attitude in response. Harvey knows a hell of a lot more about microphones than either you or I do, and you should have taken that advice.

At that point, I still hadn't talked about nor recommended my mics, or any omni mic, whatsoever. In fact I was comparing two mics, the SM81 and C414, only one of which has an omni setting, but I was discussing them without regard to polar pattern.

But you insisted on personalizing a technical discussion, and forced me to discuss my products even though that was not and is not my interest in the thread. In fact, if you search for "naiant" on this board, you'll see lots and lots of thread, almost none of them (after Aug. 2006, which was the very early date I decided to stop public comment) where I am a participant. When I do enter, it's usually to advise someone NOT buy my products, because the intended use is not appropriate (customer returns don't help me at all).

Despite your implication, I have still never recommended my product in this thread. However, I have amply shown that other major manufacturers agree with every technical point I'm made in this thread. You have no argument to counter that, so you resort to the potty talk.

You, sir, are the one lacking class.

Finally, you should note that this thread is old, and it was old when you entered it. The OP started a similar thread at the same time on the newbies board, where you may read my recommendation, two weeks before you ever considered the matter:

Microphones in the low-budget category that could be considered for solo violin:

- Small diaphragm condenser mics. More accurate transient response; more consistent off-axis response. Really cheap cardioid ones tend to have significant presence peaks, which I really think is a bad idea for violin. The cheapest reasonably flat cardioid mic I can think of is the Shure SM81, which is very commonly available used for about $200. Also popular, although I haven't used them, is the Oktava MC012 (darkish), and the MXL 603 or 604 (bright, but tameable). I believe the 604 is the model where you can get omni caps. That's true of the Oktava too; it used to be true of the Shure, but the omni cap for the SM81 is long discontinued and impossible to find on the used market. Audio-Technica has a range of inexpensive small-diaphragm mics that are worthy of consideration; we use I think 4041s as choir overheads (and off-axis pipe organ!) at church and they work well. They also have entries in their 20 and 30 series. I would avoid the AKG C1000, universally derided as perhaps their worst microphone. There are probably better choices in their range, but I don't know them.

I believe choices in polar pattern are good . . . but a reasonable cardioid mic used in a typical stereo configuration will be between 45 and 55 degrees off-axis, where they are flatter and darker.

- Large diaphragm condenser mics. Greater variance in off-axis response; slower transient response. Often viewed as euphonic, especially on vocals. Quieter than SDCs, due to higher capsule output. Not used as frequently in off-axis stereo patterns, but popular for techniques such as spaced pair (on drum overheads, for example), or on-axis stereo such as mid-side or Blumlein. However, slim pickin's for solo violin in the $100 range. How much is the CAD M179? People seem to like that one, and it's switchable pattern. Beware of the SDC hiding in an LDC body--not a bad thing per se, it could sound great. Just don't be fooled into thinking you will get the characteristics of an LDC. You might get something clever, or you might get an SDC with added case resonance.

Before we leave the topic of condenser microphones, you will hear recommendations for tube mics. Everybody loves tubes! I love tubes! I love tubes on violin! Some designs are better than others, but I think $100 is probably pushing it.

lastly:

- Ribbon mics. Smooth high-frequency response, but often not much of it. Low sensitivity. Most are figure-eight pattern. Ribbon mics are hugely trendy. I'm not a ribbon fanboi, and that's not because I make condensers. I've actually done a lot of work with ribbon mics, but at $70 (watch for sales) the Chinese have cornered the cheap end of the market. I think they are good at what they do, I just don't think they do everything. People that use them on drum overheads, I think they should buy better cymbals but that is my bias.

On violin, they can be useful on a bright instrument where close-micing is required. They're good at instant fiddle. I would not select one of the cheaper ones for distant micing a violin, there's just not enough there. Beyerdynamic makes a couple of midrange models worthy of consideration; I satisfy myself with an old Shure 315. Perhaps once you've got a setup and are looking for another tone, but before then I'd look in the SDC range for a primary pair.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2922586&postcount=53

Have a nice day!

 

[bigtoe]

my reading comprehension skills are fine. i've not once gotten personal. i'll make a few points to close.

1) you stepped in when i said your product may not be the best in this application...as did most of your group thinkers.

2) your technical speak has been nothing close to technical...it started with semantics. words you choose to use when speaking to a poster who most likely doesn't know them ain't a genius move.

show me any technical point that makes a difference to the original question. you want to point me to a spec sheet or say that i'm speaking incorrectly...well no offense, i'll have something to say in response.

3) defending your product by talking through other manufacturers press sheets is lame. manufacturers should stand up and speak for themselves...that's good business. i'd also think you'd change your name to your mic manufacturing company. many forums have you do that. i wondered why i was getting such flack to begin with.

4) regarding your other post: great post. very useful. you should have stayed with that in tone an contect in this one.

5) regarding timing, i just respond to them as i see them on the first 10 posts where it was. sorry i don't hawk the forum as often...

later...
Mike

 

[bigtoe]

Are you recording any classical gigs in the Cleveland area?

i'm all rock/jazz now though i can...my market hasn't gone that direction.

laters...

Mike