Cheap mics for solo violin

[dgatwood]

In recording classical music on violin, to get a natural sound you're probably going to end up with the mic's a few feet away from the instrument.

My bad. For some reason, I was thinking this was about acoustic guitar recording.... Wow. So far off the mark. Yeah, for bowed string instruments, ignore everything I said... except that worrying about pickup pattern is focusing on the wrong problem---that's still true, just for different reasons. Specifically, miking bowed strings absolutely requires a decent room regardless of what you use to mic it, regardless of pickup pattern, etc. I've tried to record cello in small, somewhat reflective room and it was an unmitigated disaster. Moved into a larger room very quickly.

My advice would be to buy an inexpensive (but good) mic like the Naiant series and spend the money you save on starting to treat your room. Oh, wait, the original post was about recording in places like churches. For that, you're probably looking to pick up the room acoustics anyway. In that case, I'd probably go with a pair of cardioid mics like the MK-012 for a more natural (IMHO) stereo image.

 

[bigtoe]

OK, if you use your ears to listen to the 414 vs. the SM81, your ears will tell you the SM81 is noisier. You could spend $1,300 to find that out with your ears (or rent them, that's cheaper), or you can learn what specs mean (and what they don't mean, and don't tell you--transient response being a good example) and trust AKG and Shure as having a vague idea what they are talking about.

Or you can pretend I was speaking my last post to you, and your ears were hearing it. Thus if you speak the word "sensitivity" to other people when you mean "transient response", then their ears will hear words that confuse their brains, and they will conclude that you haven't learned what those terms mean in relation to how a microphone sounds.

well...i've owned them both...i've sold them both…I've used a number of different varietals of both...i know what they sound like and i know how to read a spec sheet. i also know that spec sheets are manipulated by the manufacturer and even if they aren't they say very little about the sound of the mic...which is why i really stopped paying attention to them early on.

i know the difference between the 414 and the 81 noise wise and i know their noise floor is not a big deal in this application, as the smaller cheap omnis are.

your question has nothing to do with the application question i was answering ...i was answering a newbie on a forum...i think my description of sensitivity stands as applicable. If you wanna come in and talk lingo - feel free. I doubt the dude will understand what you're talking about. I can follow but get bored fairly easily with your type once you head up your tail and away from the question.

sorry i don't like the cheap omni mics for the application asked - do you make them? i have a vague recollection your name is connected with a mic manufacturer.

i'd also never trust akg. shure is another story.

Mike

 

[apl]

If you'd've ordered the naiants you'd be recording by now and still have money to shop for schmantzier mics.

 

[mshilarious]

your question has nothing to do with the application question i was answering ...i was answering a newbie on a forum...i think my description of sensitivity stands as applicable. If you wanna come in and talk lingo - feel free. I doubt the dude will understand what you're talking about. I can follow but get bored fairly easily with your type once you head up your tail and away from the question.

Oh, but they somehow understood when you started talking about "sensitivity"?

Look, there are two schools of thought: one is that reading or learning anything about microphones is meaningless, you have to try them yourself on your source in your room. I appreciate that, but it means there is no point in participating in any thread about microphones, since it's impossible to give any useful advice. And I follow that school quite often.

The other school of thought is one should learn as much as possible about recording, and that might, just maybe, mean you have to learn something semi-technical (shudder!), because if one learns how microphones work, then it can save a lot of time in going through one's mic cabinet every time a novel situation arises.

Again . . . it's all in Harvey's big thread.

sorry i don't like the cheap omni mics for the application asked - do you make them? i have a vague recollection your name is connected with a mic manufacturer.

Of course I do. Doesn't everybody?

It doesn't matter to me that you don't like cheap omnis, I haven't talked about cheap omnis at all.

Think about this though: how much room do you reject with two cardioids in XY? Given that one cardioid will be -7dB or so at 90 degrees at critical "room sound" frequencies?

Moral of story: record classical music in good rooms. Heck, record all music in good rooms. Recording is really easy with good performances on good instruments in good rooms. Churches are almost always good rooms, unless you are running a PA But for recording a soloist at 3-4' in a giant space, that's about as good as it gets without being in a room specifically designed for good reverb.

 

[dementedchord]

or the AT Pro37R... I use the AT Pro37R as my stage mic for fiddle all the time... and like it...
Randy

i've got a pair here that i love... one of the best buys i ever made... found them for $150/pair... and AT's quality controll is high enough that "matched" doesnt enter into it...

 

[bigtoe]

yeesh- i guess i'm the first person to suggest using directional microphones to combat poor acoustics and to watch yer noise floor where it will become an issue.

"Oh, but they somehow understood when you started talking about "sensitivity"?"

i thought it the better description than asking them to wade through 100 pages online or to go buy a book or take a class before qualifying a pair of mics next to another. i think i qualified it way better than you anyway. know your audience...

as for the rest of your post - i just show up to shoot some people some advice from time to time based on my experience, look for tips and deals. you want to debate and wag your johnson - look elsewhere.

laters.

Mike

 

[XLR]

Another thing to take into account when selecting mic's for classical recording... since the most effective mic pair placements tend to be several feet away, mic's that might do well close-up may perform less well at a distance. Many mic's get worse sounding the further you pull them back from a source, even in a great sounding room - because of phase coherence problems with the way the capsule captures from the front, sides and back. Large diaphragm mic's are notorious for that. Small diaphragm mic's like the Naiants are strong in that regard. And BTW, the Naiant X-Q has a self-noise of 20 dBA, the same as, if I remember correctly, a Neumann KM83 (omni version of the coveted KM84), and noticeably less than the initial MSH models.

With any mic, a good test is to put it 3-6 feet away from the source and see how it sounds. It'll tell you a lot.

 

[apl]

yeesh- i guess i'm the first person to suggest using directional microphones to combat poor acoustics and to watch yer noise floor where it will become an issue.

Using a directional mic to combat poor acoustics is like using a wetsuit to battle a leaky roof.

Directional mics aren't all that directional.

 

[antichef]

Using a directional mic to combat poor acoustics is like using a wetsuit to battle a leaky roof.

Directional mics aren't all that directional.

Good analogy! (but can you hear me say that through the wetsuit?)

 

[mshilarious]

Good analogy! (but can you hear me say that through the wetsuit?)

Hey, the water's over 60F here now, who needs a wetsuit?

 

[XLR]

My bad. For some reason, I was thinking this was about acoustic guitar recording....

Heh, well since classical violin mic threads occur about every 4 yrs at HR, I can see why.

I'd probably go with a pair of cardioid mics like the MK-012 for a more natural (IMHO) stereo image

There is something very realistic about the image that stereo pair cardioids give. Spaced omnis do tend to give a heightened sense of width/depth that's different from what your ears would pick up if sitting in the same spot...

But if one uses a Jecklin disc with omnis you can get the best of both worlds... the greater naturalness of the low frequencies that is characteristic of omnis, and the natural-sounding L/R high frequency directional difference too.

 

[omtayslick]

Get a pair of Apex ribbons, the 210 and the 215, both for under $300 (both....not each). Set them up in a mid-side rig. If you have a good preamp with lots of clean gain, you will get great sound on violins.

I've not heard or tried every rig there is, but I have not in my own experience found any better results than the mid-side setup for a stereo source.

This may be worth looking in to. The last time I was sitting in where solo violin was recorded it was done with a single Royer ribbon mic. Gorgeous sound. Preamp was nothing special, a Focusrite Octopre. I can imagine that M/S with ribbons could be beautiful.

 

[emerrill]

The last time I was sitting in where solo violin was recorded it was done with a single Royer ribbon mic. Gorgeous sound.

Why do you need a stereo pair to record solo violin? Stereo can be nice, but the fact is you are recording ONE instrument. Were budget not an issue, you could get a sweet pair of m50s and stop thinking. Too bad that's not the case.

Since your budget is SEVERELY limited, I strongly recommend that you spend all your money on one channel. I've done a good deal of violin recording but there's so much variation in such recordings that it's difficult to know what to think.

I would recommend trying ONE of the best SDC or Ribbon you can afford and pick the one you prefer.

Just don't halve your quality to record one instrument in stereo.

 

[omtayslick]

Why do you need a stereo pair to record solo violin? Stereo can be nice, but the fact is you are recording ONE instrument. Were budget not an issue, you could get a sweet pair of m50s and stop thinking. Too bad that's not the case.

Since your budget is SEVERELY limited, I strongly recommend that you spend all your money on one channel. I've done a good deal of violin recording but there's so much variation in such recordings that it's difficult to know what to think.

I would recommend trying ONE of the best SDC or Ribbon you can afford and pick the one you prefer.

Just don't halve your quality to record one instrument in stereo.

ok........................

 

[XLR]

Why do you need a stereo pair to record solo violin?...

Because you're recording the instrument in the room, not just the direct sound.

There is value though, re overall sound quality, in getting one great mic instead of two lesser mic's. But IMO you're talking a lot of money there, and the OP's thread title is "Cheap mics..."

 

[Dan Micah]

1 good quality mic

I play and record violin - both classical and fiddle. I own a Neumann km184, rode nt5s Peluso small diaphragms and Msh omnis. My favourite is the 184, single mic in a nice room. The Peluso comes close, and the msh omni are permanently mounted in my studio to record jams - they sound fine, but a nice room is essential. I was not happy with any violin sound I recorded until I spent over $1000 on 1 mic! You should get the naiant mics to get you started and save for a Neumann or Peluso.

Dan

 

[XLR]

I think the KM184 is around $850 now. I had a pair but thought their highs were kind of edgy.

You should get the naiant mics to get you started and save for a Neumann or Peluso.

...or save for DPA, or Schoeps, or Josephson, or AEA, or Royer, or...

 

[apl]

I think the KM184 is around $850 now. I had a pair but thought their highs were kind of edgy.

...or save for DPA, or Schoeps, or Josephson, or AEA, or Royer, or...

It'd be money ahead to buy a pair of MSHs and spend a couple of Fridays at home recording instead of out on the town.

 

[bigtoe]

Using a directional mic to combat poor acoustics is like using a wetsuit to battle a leaky roof.

Directional mics aren't all that directional.

that last statement is incorrect and really misguided.

as far as the frighteningly bad analogy...even if it were apppropriate...you got a bad gig where the "roof is leaking" and the artist wants it done anyway...get whatever you need to get the job done...wetsuit, cardioids, omnis, set yourself on fire, whatever, do it... or don't get the gig the next time. that's your choice...

i regularly set up bands on top of each other and without directional mics, the gig would not fly. i used to regularly set up mics in front of solo violinists and the like in acceptible environments but still not good enough conditions for omnis...if they were omnis i wouldn't have been working long.

as far as the omni mic manufacturer backing it up... you seem like a wiser cat than that...think higher.

the dpas are worth a years worth of nights on the town!

Mike

 

[XLR]

OK, only way to settle this is for eug_fiddler to buy a pair of cardioids like the C4, NT5 or MK012, and to ALSO get a pair of Naiant omnis. Then we'll expect sound samples from each concert comparing the cardioid pair and the omni pair. Of course, he'll have to get a more elaborate recording system so he can do 4 tracks at once, but hey, that's a small price to pay to appease us adequately. He owes us, man.