Cheap mics for solo violin

[eug_fiddler]

Hi, I'm new to this and I've posted in the newbie forum but thought I might get more specific recommendations here. I'm looking to get a stereo pair of mics to record solo violin stuff in all sorts of venues, churches for example. Most likely hook it up to a USB interface like the M-Audio MobilePre (or something else if you guys can recommend a better) for my Macbook.

I'm looking for something around $200-300 for a pair.

Would something like the AT2020 be suitable for my purposes?

Thanks in advance...

E

 

[Zetajazz44]

May be a little higher than your price range, but I'd suggest the Rode NT5's...or the AT Pro37R... I use the AT Pro37R as my stage mic for fiddle all the time... and like it...


Randy

 

[eug_fiddler]

May be a little higher than your price range, but I'd suggest the Rode NT5's...or the AT Pro37R... I use the AT Pro37R as my stage mic for fiddle all the time... and like it...


Randy

Aha, just want to clarify it's for classical violin though, not "fiddle" sound per se.

 

[apl]

Get you a pair of these while you're trying to decide.

 

[Zetajazz44]

Aha, just want to clarify it's for classical violin though, not "fiddle" sound per se.

Ok... Sorry about your loss...

Mics should work the same... I'm a fiddler, but I play Eudoxa strings... all things violin/fiddle are pretty much interchangable...

 

[WhiteStrat]

zhen de bu cuo henhao

Hmmm...given your location, I'd say something was lost in translation...

 

[XLR]

Naiant.


Just do it. Buy them.

Then Google "spaced pair omni microphones" so you know how to use them well.

You can send me, and apl, a thank-you note later.

 

[guitar zero]

Just finished recording some acoustic guitar tracks with spaced pair omni Niant X-Qs. Very rich sound. $64 for a matched pair. C'mon whatryawaitinfer?

 

[bigtoe]

"I'm looking for something around $200-300 for a pair."

Try to locate a pair of sm81's or Oktava012's. s

i'd nix the omnis until you get a pair of cardioids in case your environment is not ideal. i'd also look into small diaphragms to start due to their increased sensitivity...

Mike

 

[dgatwood]

Try to locate a pair of sm81's or Oktava012's. s

i'd nix the omnis until you get a pair of cardioids in case your environment is not ideal. i'd also look into small diaphragms to start due to their increased sensitivity...

I'd go for the 012s if I were trying to buy good cardioids and had a limited budget so I could only buy one pair. The SM81s are good on some really meaty-sounding guitars, but you can get the same effect with a simple low cut on the 012. The 012, however, tends to be a better general-purpose mic, sounding better on a broader range of instruments and other sound sources.

I'm not sure I'd agree about the omnis vs. cardioids. It's a little counterintuitive, but omnis can sometimes pick up less of the room with instruments than cardioids, depending on placement.

Cardioid mics change their response characteristics when placed close to a sound source. This means that you often have to back off from the source to avoid a boomy sound. Omni mics don't exhibit proximity effect, so they can be placed right at the sound source.

Depending on the mic, cardioid mics may reject as little as 15 dB for sounds coming directly from the back and far less for sounds from anywhere else. It's important to keep that number in mind. I'll refer to this as the signal to noise ratio delta because that is the improvement in signal (direct sound) to noise (reflected sound) due to using a cardioid mic.

Omnidirectional sound emissions (like any other omni emission) falls off with the square of the distance. That means that distance from the source makes an n^2 increase in the sound level. If removing the proximity effect allows you to place the omni mic at half the distance, your sound level increases by a factor of 4, or a 12 dB signal to noise ratio delta relative to that same omni mic at the original distance. A factor of about 2.8 (sqrt(8)) gives you an 18 dB SNR delta---more than the delta provided by many cardioid mics even for signals directly from the back.

Whether that applies to guitar recording depends on how far you have to back the thing off to keep the guitar from sounding boomy, which depends in part on the guitar and the sound you're trying to get from it.

Either way, at the distances most people mic a guitar, the room shouldn't play a very big part even with an omni mic unless you're in a really tiny room or you don't have carpet. If the distance to the mic is three inches and the distance to the nearest wall is even four feet, you have about a eight foot round trip distance for the reflection and it is down by 30 dB relative to the direct sound, which is right at the limit of being able to hear it.

(Please correct my math. This is back-of-the-napkin stuff, so it is subject to being seriously wrong. )

 

[XLR]

In recording classical music on violin, to get a natural sound you're probably going to end up with the mic's a few feet away from the instrument. If so, whatever mic's you use, they're going to pick up a lot of the room. The Naiant omnis have a very smooth quality to the highs. So even in a less-than-ideal room you may find that they get a better result than narrower pattern mic's that are less smooth. And if you use the $ saved in buying them to get some room treatment materials, you'll be even happier.

Ideally though, for almost any classical instrument you'll get the best results possible in a good-sounding very large room (concert hall, church with good acoustics, pro studio with a large non-cube-shaped recording space, etc), and put the mic's 4 or more ft back. There's really nothing you can do in a small room that will get that kind of sound. If you try it you'll probably find that the mic's you select are much less important than the room you record in.

 

[bigtoe]

double post from a dork.

 

[bigtoe]

"Cardioid mics change their response characteristics when placed close to a sound source. This means that you often have to back off from the source to avoid a boomy sound. Omni mics don't exhibit proximity effect, so they can be placed right at the sound source"

Well...cardioids in a solo violin type setting won't exhibit much proximity effect...if at all. Nice use of theory in your post, but if you go out in the field and put it in context you'll get real results which show a bit more usable reality, no offense.

and an 012 and 81 have completely different top end... they're both cool...but not interchangable at all no matter what switch ya flick.

"If so, whatever mic's you use, they're going to pick up a lot of the room."

Using hyper-cardioids and even cardioids in an x/y pattern significantly reduce reflections vs direct sound. you cannot deny that no matter how popular the Naiant's are on this forum.

if the Naiant are the panasonic capsule type mic ala the stapes or what every they are called now - they are great mics. i've owned a couple different pairs of these types. agreed on the smoothness.

however, to have them as a first or only set in your kit is limiting your toolset in a big bad way particularly if you're traveling room to room.

plus, this says nothing of the self-noise - if that is an issue with these things as they were with versions i have used. don't know if Naiant has addressed that issue...but with the stapes i wouldn't think of taking them out for a solo violin gig...too much noise.

good luck...

Mike

 

[mshilarious]

i'd also look into small diaphragms to start due to their increased sensitivity...

All things being equal, a smaller diaphragm will have less sensitivity than a larger diaphragm. That's true for any polar pattern too, but not necessarily when comparing two mics with different polar patterns.

Sensitivity is not critical anyway; nearly any condenser mic on a violin will have suitable sensitivity for the gain range of just about any preamp. In fact, the SM81 is one of the least sensitive condensers, at -45dBV/Pa. Doesn't mean it isn't a great mic, it is.

Anyway, there is capsule sensitivity, and there is output sensitivity. You can totally manipulate the signal with the mic's internal amp to just about any sensitivity you want, all the way up to line level if need be.

However, that doesn't generally affect signal-to-noise ratio; that is set by the capsule's noise and the FET noise; after that you can only make it worse. The primary factor in self-noise is the size of the capsule, which again increases output as size gets larger, and thus increases signal-to-noise ratio.

 

[bigtoe]

All things being equal, a smaller diaphragm will have less sensitivity than a larger diaphragm. That's true for any polar pattern too, but not necessarily when comparing two mics with different polar patterns.

Sensitivity is not critical anyway; nearly any condenser mic on a violin will have suitable sensitivity for the gain range of just about any preamp. In fact, the SM81 is one of the least sensitive condensers, at -45dBV/Pa. Doesn't mean it isn't a great mic, it is.

Anyway, there is capsule sensitivity, and there is output sensitivity. You can totally manipulate the signal with the mic's internal amp to just about any sensitivity you want, all the way up to line level if need be.

However, that doesn't generally affect signal-to-noise ratio; that is set by the capsule's noise and the FET noise; after that you can only make it worse. The primary factor in self-noise is the size of the capsule, which again increases output as size gets larger, and thus increases signal-to-noise ratio.

that's interesting on the size of the capsule. i didn't know that. however, you take something like a 414 and compare it to an 81 the 81 will have more detail in that solo violin application. i guess that's what i was ham-fistedly referring to and i'll stand by that. any LDC i've ever used pale in comparsion to the detail you can get from a SDC. that type of sensitivity is always critical.

as far as noise...i don't follow your discussion nor really need to - i'm no tech and never want to be... however, those little omni's do have a noise floor that you need to take into consideration...particularly when you are talking solo classical violin. the mics i have used like the Naiant are way noiser than the average bear. Buyer beware. Again, i don't know if y'all have taken care of that attribute.

Mike

 

[mshilarious]

that's interesting on the size of the capsule. i didn't know that. however, you take something like a 414 and compare it to an 81 the 81 will have more detail in that solo violin application. i guess that's what i was ham-fistedly referring to and i'll stand by that. any LDC i've ever used pale in comparsion to the detail you can get from a SDC. that type of sensitivity is always critical.

That's very true, but sensitivity is a term-of-art which always refers to voltage output with a given SPL input. What you're talking about is transient response, which also has a large effect on frequency response. A larger diaphragm takes longer to get moving and stop again than a smaller diaphragm does, which accounts for the difference.

The tradeoff, as we have both noted, is noise. There's no way for an SDC like the SM81 (16dBA self-noise) to achieve the rating of the 414 (6dBA). So you have to choose which is more important for a given application.

In conclusion, and in summary, it's all in Harvey's big thread!

 

[bigtoe]

no thanks but thanks! i'll continue to use the ears - not the eyes.

Mike

 

[soundchaser59]

Get a pair of Apex ribbons, the 210 and the 215, both for under $300 (both....not each). Set them up in a mid-side rig. If you have a good preamp with lots of clean gain, you will get great sound on violins.

I've not heard or tried every rig there is, but I have not in my own experience found any better results than the mid-side setup for a stereo source.

 

[mshilarious]

no thanks but thanks! i'll continue to use the ears - not the eyes.

Mike

OK, if you use your ears to listen to the 414 vs. the SM81, your ears will tell you the SM81 is noisier. You could spend $1,300 to find that out with your ears (or rent them, that's cheaper), or you can learn what specs mean (and what they don't mean, and don't tell you--transient response being a good example) and trust AKG and Shure as having a vague idea what they are talking about.

Or you can pretend I was speaking my last post to you, and your ears were hearing it. Thus if you speak the word "sensitivity" to other people when you mean "transient response", then their ears will hear words that confuse their brains, and they will conclude that you haven't learned what those terms mean in relation to how a microphone sounds.

 

[Rimshot]

On Saturday night I had a violinist playing with us at a club and I used the Naiants X-S mini with the little gooseneck clip attached to the front edge of her chin rest and tipped so that it was pointed at the strings just forward of the bridge and out of the way of her bow.
Damn! Did that little puppy work well! I just have to get more of these mics. I usually use that mic on my darbukah, but we were a group of five and stayed on stage. Usually I move around a bit and have that mic clipped to the drum.
In the studio, I use my Oktava MK-012 for violins. An AKG 414 works really really well on violin also. But neither of those two are cheap. The Naiants is only $25 plus cable and clip.
Good deal!