Catching that "warmth"

[VSpaceBoy]

If you have tried different micing positions then try changing the room like suggested already. Hell try a different mic to see if you hear a change for the better. If you like it how you hear it in the room put the mic where your head is.

Who knows, but you wont figure it out unless you start changing the equipment/enviroment and start troubleshooting.

Ron

 

[chessrock]

Ok let me rephrase this then. How do i capture the guitars true sound and tone better? I want to get a much fuller sound.

-Shoe

Much, much better.

First off, you have to understand that microphones and recording gear in general just "hear" differently than our ears do.

Getting a "true," or "fuller" tone out of it is going to be a matter of experimentation.

Provided you have a good monitor setup that allows you to hear what's truly being tracked, you need to practice with different things. Try lifting the amp up off the ground . . . try tilting it upwards . . . try putting it on it's back. Try mic'ing it up close, and try mic'ing it further back. Try using one mic, and try using two. Try boosting the treble knob, and try cutting it. Do the same with the mids and bass. Try boosting the gain and try cutting it. Try the top pickup and try the middle one.

. . . All the while listening to the results so you can hear the effect it has on how your tracks sound coming out of the monitors.

If you'd like a general tip, I almost always lift the amp up off the ground and tilt it upwards to where it's on a slight angle towards the ceiling. I'll then close-mic it right between where the center cone meets the rest of the speaker. I'll then mess with the knobs until it sounds right coming out of the monitors as well as the speaker.

As a rule, I'll always use less gain, less treble, and more mids than I think I want.

The one important thing that I completely missed in all of this is that you need to be using an amp that records well. Not all amps fit that criteria. You see, an amp that sounds good live and/or sounds right to you while practicing or in a rehearsal space is not necessarily going to make a good recording amp.

Experiment and practice recording various types of amps until you find the one that records well for you with the least amount of effort and tampering. Sometimes it's just as simple as that. You plug in a particular amp, and suddenly there's your tone and you just put in ZERO effort to get it. I'll bet you Guns&Roses had some awful nice ones at their disposal when they recorded their records.

 

[TexRoadkill]

Ok let me rephrase this then. How do i capture the guitars true sound and tone better?

It's impossible. What a source sounds like to your naked ears is almost irrelevant.

Everything in the path will add it's own color. The only sound that matters is the sound that comes out of your monitors. This is also why a good monitoring chain and room are crucial to audio engineering.

Listen through them while adjusting the amp sound and mic position until it sounds great through the monitors. I've often found that the best sound out of the monitors (and more importantly in the context of a full mix) can sound like shit when you listen to the source in the room.

No track is an island unto itself.


BTW- "Warmth" has as much relevance to audio as "Purple". If you can make your tracks sound warm and purple then you are a true Jedi.


EDIT - I just realized that Chessrock said a lot of the same thing in his last post but I don't read posts from 'pompous cocksuckers'.

 

[Track Rat]

I wish to become Jedi and achieve the "purple" guitar tracks also. Would something like this help me?
http://mercenaryaudio.com/purpleaudio.html

 

[chessrock]

A few random thoughts on good recording amps . . .




* You realize as a general rule, for cleaner stuff, just about any decent Fender Tube amp will tend to be good for recording.

Same also goes for the Peavey Classic 30.

* You also realize that, as a general rule, the same amps just mentioned are almost universally horrible for recording heavier distortion.

* When recording heavier stuff, distortion boxes almost never cut it. They tend to record too thin. You're much better off relying on the natural distortion from the gain of a decent tube amp.

Unfortunately, in the affordable range, there are very few decent recording amps for heavier distortion. Although it is pretty well known that Slash was a fan of Marshall amps, most of the more affordable Marshalls just sound plain bad if you try to record with them. In my not-so-humble opinion, the JCM-2000 DSL is probably the exception (a VERY under-rated recording amp, btw, if used properly).

* THD Univalves are fairly affordable, and make decent to outstanding recording amps for almost any kind of style.


* I've had most excellent results from anything Mesa/Boogie.

* Carvin amps might be better than you think they are.

 

[EddieRay]

Man, you newbs are killing me with all that warmth stuff.

You have to understand: warmth is an ideal that exists only in your imagination.

Strive to make things sound good. At least that's a concept that's not quite as abstract, and not totally unattainable. And if good is giving you massive difficulty, then strive for not sucking first . . . and once you get that down, you can move on to good. And after all of that, I suppose you can start worrying about this "warmth" thing or whatever. Just try not to lose too much sleep over it.

Good is good. And if it's good, then someone's bound to think it's "warm."

Hey I'm not out to make enemies, but could you give us an estimate on how may more "warmth" posts it will take to kill you?

Anyway, maybe the newbs are getting it from all the recording FAQs out there. I found this in the one at www.homerecording.com:

"2K - 4K is a warm area, especially for guitars, a boost here can add body and warmth to the mix.

4 - 5K is a harsh area. A cut here can often allow you to bring up the overall level of a sound.

A lot of sounds also have some component in the highs (7K and up) that's offensive--SSSSSS or whatever. Sometimes if you cut that, then do a general high-end boost, the thing sounds more pleasing. Cymbals usually are in the 8K - 10K range, so it's best to leave them alone in that area. Also, in general, SATURATION equals warmth. Compression can give a saturated sound. Tube gear especially (compressors, EQ's, amps) gives a saturated sound. Ditto for analog tape. In general, the more analoggy-tubey-compressy stuff you have in your signal chain, the warmer
things will sound. "

 

[chessrock]

Man, Eddy. You got me.

Alright, alright. I lied. Warmth is real and it exists. I've just been trying to spread false rumors in the hopes of maintaining the competitive edge of my mixes. You know; if I can spread enough false rumors, then everyone else's stuff will suck, thus making mine all the better in comparison.

It's actually a conspiracy, so don't trust anyone else who says similar stuff.

The reason I'm coming clean is because I'm suffering from a guilty conscience, and can't keep the lie up any more. You know that frequency chart that talks about "2-4 khz" being an area of "warmth?" It's all true. The secret's there. If you want your stuff to sound really really warm . . . just grab your favorite EQ and jack up 4 khz. Just be sure to boost it a lot.

People will be flabergasted and jealous over how warm your stuff sounds with that 4 khz boost.

And for everything else, just remember what Audio Jesus said about "the tone of tubeness." He was right. Tubes are just warm-sounding. In fact, if you want that kind of warmth, all you need to do is run out and pick up a Presonus Blue Tube mic pre and/or a Bellari MP105. ART Tube MP ain't no slouch either. Anything with a tube in it.

Instant warmth, and that's no joke.

 

[EddieRay]

Man, Eddy. You got me.

Alright, alright. I lied. Warmth is real and it exists. I've just been trying to spread false rumors in the hopes of maintaining the competitive edge of my mixes. You know; if I can spread enough false rumors, then everyone else's stuff will suck, thus making mine all the better in comparison.

It's actually a conspiracy, so don't trust anyone else who says similar stuff.

The reason I'm coming clean is because I'm suffering from a guilty conscience, and can't keep the lie up any more. You know that frequency chart that talks about "2-4 khz" being an area of "warmth?" It's all true. The secret's there. If you want your stuff to sound really really warm . . . just grab your favorite EQ and jack up 4 khz. Just be sure to boost it a lot.

People will be flabergasted and jealous over how warm your stuff sounds with that 4 khz boost.

And for everything else, just remember what Audio Jesus said about "the tone of tubeness." He was right. Tubes are just warm-sounding. In fact, if you want that kind of warmth, all you need to do is run out and pick up a Presonus Blue Tube mic pre and/or a Bellari MP105. ART Tube MP ain't no slouch either. Anything with a tube in it.

Instant warmth, and that's no joke.

Okay! I'm glad we got that settled! So everyone can now talk about "warmth" without getting ticketed by the terminology police? Wonderful!

 

[NYMorningstar]

Okay! I'm glad we got that settled! So everyone can now talk about "warmth" without getting ticketed by the terminology police? Wonderful!

What am I missing here?

 

[Texas Slim]

Have you tried double or triple mic'ing your cabinet......I've got a Fender '59 bassman that gives me great tone live with just a beta57, but in the studio it's a different monster. I'll use the beta57 right on the grill, about 30-45 degrees off-axis from the center of the best sounding speaker in the cab to catch the bite and crunch. Then I'll take an AKG C3000b and put that about a foot off the dead center of the cabinet to catch the sound of the amp. If channels are available.....i'll sometimes mic the open back of the amp with a generic large diaphram to catch some juicy mid's and low mid's. Just be aware of phasing when using multiple mics on a single source.

Just a thought.....

 

[chessrock]

I've got a Fender '59 bassman

Those are pretty nice amps for recording. Kind of under-rated sleepers.

 

[Texas Slim]

On the topic of recording destortion......
you might also try to use power breaks if your using a seperate head and cabinet.....that will let you get the natural preamp distortion without having to blow the speakers in your cabinet or getting evicted from your apartment. If your wanting that dirty speaker distortion.....well. hope you've got some earplugs and understanding neighbors.

 

[grinder]

Hey I'm not out to make enemies, but could you give us an estimate on how may more "warmth" posts it will take to kill you?

Anyway, maybe the newbs are getting it from all the recording FAQs out there. I found this in the one at www.homerecording.com:

"2K - 4K is a warm area, especially for guitars, a boost here can add body and warmth to the mix.

4 - 5K is a harsh area. A cut here can often allow you to bring up the overall level of a sound.

A lot of sounds also have some component in the highs (7K and up) that's offensive--SSSSSS or whatever. Sometimes if you cut that, then do a general high-end boost, the thing sounds more pleasing. Cymbals usually are in the 8K - 10K range, so it's best to leave them alone in that area. Also, in general, SATURATION equals warmth. Compression can give a saturated sound. Tube gear especially (compressors, EQ's, amps) gives a saturated sound. Ditto for analog tape. In general, the more analoggy-tubey-compressy stuff you have in your signal chain, the warmer
things will sound. "

Your ear must be way differant than mine (which is Chessrocks whole point). I find 1-3k pretty harsh, think babies screaming, police sirens, power tools, have alot of 1-3k content.

 

[shoe1]

wow thanks guys! Who would've known recording was this confusing. It's like an art!

About eq'ing. I've been fooling around with the eq's a bit and realized how much of a difference it makes. What are some good eq's for clean and distortion?

Thanks for the help about amp placement and such. Once i get my new neck pickup in, i'll fool around until i get that perfect sound. Thanks!

-Shoe

 

[TexRoadkill]

There's no set EQ for anything. It just depends.

Often I'll end up rolling off some low end around 100-200hz and maybe adding a touch at 3khz if it needs a litte more edge to stand out in the mix.

 

[chessrock]

What are some good eq's for clean and distortion?

Geez. EQ'ing guitars is one of the most difficult things to tackle. It's literally taken years out of my life and hairs down the drain. I know this kind of goes against my whole "use your ears" and "there are no set rules" policy . . . but I've just found 300-400 hz to be a pretty critical area for cutting. It just almost always clears out a lot of the proverbial mud. 2.5 khz is a good spot if you need more crunch, but be very conservative there, because you can also make it sound really thin and fizzy if you get all carried away with it.

200-250 hz can be your friend if you want to beef things up a bit. But again, you should be careful because you're treading dangerously close to the 300 hz mud territory. I try to use fairly narrow boosts there.

700 hz is one of my favorite frequencies. I almost always boost there for distorted guitar, because it imparts a certain color I like that immediately makes me think of Queens of the Stoneage or really early Black Sabbath. If you boost it too much, it will just make it sound like it's being played out of a Pig Nose --- which actually isn't such a bad thing, but it's more of an effect than anything else . . . I try not to get carried away with for fear that everything I mix will start sounding that way.

 

[EddieRay]

Your ear must be way differant than mine (which is Chessrocks whole point). I find 1-3k pretty harsh, think babies screaming, police sirens, power tools, have alot of 1-3k content.

Which ear? My left is good for hearing temperature but my right hears color.

Actually I'm still developing my "audio ears" and I can't claim to hear the things those who've been doing this a while can hear. I guess my point is that the concept of audio "warmth" appears to be long and well entrenched in the abundant body of literature and anyone who takes on this hobby will encounter it. Chessrock seems to take it personally that nobody checked with him first before pursuing the ellusive "warmth". I just think that if he's off on a debunking campaign he's asking to have his nose tweaked.

 

[chessrock]

Eddie, I'm just trying to help you.

Trying to help you understand a few things, and also trying to help you not look like an idiot should you ever get a chance to talk with someone far more advanced than myself.

I have no idea how ambitious you are about this, but if you were ever to apply for an intern position with a decent studio, and you used the term "warm" over and over again, or if you asked an experienced cat how he got his tracks so "warm," people probably wouldn't take you very seriously and you likely wouldn't get much respect. It just kinda' screams "amateur."

And even if you're not very serious, and you just want to get some good advice . . . it's important to remember that those who ask good questions will usually get good answers. And using vague terminology that doesn't really have a commonly-accepted meaning is a good way to get the answers that aren't relevent or helpful.

Imagine an English person visiting San Francisco who wants to pick up a pack of smokes. So he stops someone on the street and asks: "Do you know where I can I bum a fag?" . . . only to get his ass kicked.

 

[crazydoc]

I just think that if he's off on a debunking campaign he's asking to have his nose tweaked.

I think you'll have a hard time tweaking that teflon nose (to mix metaphors).

 

[miraclemusic]

define "thin"

In scientifically precise musical amplification terminology I wonder if you could please define "thin" for me?