Can't Get Guitar to sound right when recording

[Simplex09]

It's not so much the volume as the gain - the amount of distortion.
Distorted guitar generally sounds more distorted in the recording than in real life,
presumably due to the proximity of the microphone to the speaker, so it's very common to have to pull the gain back to get the recorded tone you want.

Volume is good, though. Moving air is good.

I think in your original recordings the very high gain isn't helping but there's a more serious fundamental reason why it sounds so thin.
If you follow the last steps I gave, hopefully, we'll figure it out.

Thanks so how can you get a really full sounding guitar? And plus what would be the best way to increase the volume of a track? Gain or the volume slider?

 

[Steenamaroo]

"Thanks so how can you get a really full sounding guitar?"
That's what we're trying to find out.

Something's wrong with your setup so following the steps would be the plan for now, until we can establish what's going wrong.

When I'm referring to gain I'm talking about the gain control on your amplifier.
That generally means 'amount of distortion'.

On other devices like interfaces and mixers it usually doesn't.

What I'm saying is when you set up your amp and think 'aw yeah, that's the perfect amount of distortion', it'll almost certainly be too much for recording.

That is, however, really a side bit of advice.
Following post #38 and reporting the results will, hopefully, put us another step closer to solving whatever this cancellation-sounding problem is.

 

[Simplex09]

Here is two files I uploaded last night and both of them sound a lot better.

I recorded both of them using the solo

mic 1 XLR to Line (Edge of speaker)
Mic 2 XLR to XLR (Outside dust Cap)

The weird thing is when using the mixer with the XLR to Line I couldn't get that microphone to sound good at all with my voice? but I unplugged the cable and plugged in the XLR to XLR into the same microphone and it worked perfectly the voice volumes were normal. I was thinking of buying some XLR cables today on amazon what do you suggest personally I notice "GEAR UP" come up a lot? Or Shure makes cables and sells them on amazon so not sure if it would be worth buying them.

But thanks so much for your help guys!! I could always make it sound good with Amp Sims of course but I wanted to learn how to record straight from the amp and be able to use that.

 

[Steenamaroo]

"mic 1 XLR to Line (Edge of speaker)"
Almost certainly your problem.

Your microphones need to see a microphone preamplifier, and microphone preamplifiers are accessible via XLR input.
On more or less all modern interfaces and mixers 1/4" inputs are for either line or instrument level input.

You should definitely use microphone > XLR to XLR > Mixer

That being said, both of your attached recordings sound much fuller than the original clip so there is still a cancellation issue at play which needs to be addressed.
It's possible that's down to the XLR to 1/4" cable you were using so, sure, I guess pick up a new XLR to XLR cable first,
but please do come back and let us know how your two signals combine when you've done that, to ensure that that original issue has been resolved.

 

[ecc83]

I still find the "edge of speaker" clip too distorted. There seems to be a partial "blocking" distortion that is very unpleasant to me at least.

Do consider the levels you are putting into the Solo. The line input can handle +22dBu (~8V rms) at minimum gain but the instrument input only +12dBu (~3V rms). Most mixers can kick out in excess of +22dBu so you won't want the meters on that going very high. Have we been told what the mixer is?

Do not be concerned about the levels you record. They can always be digitally boosted, either with a "Normalize" function or just whack up the track fader and "save as". Such processes make absolutely no difference to the 'quality' of the track or its signal to noise ratio.

Dave.

 

[Simplex09]

"mic 1 XLR to Line (Edge of speaker)"
Almost certainly your problem.

Your microphones need to see a microphone preamplifier, and microphone preamplifiers are accessible via XLR input.
On more or less all modern interfaces and mixers 1/4" inputs are for either line or instrument level input.

You should definitely use microphone > XLR to XLR > Mixer

That being said, both of your attached recordings sound much fuller than the original clip so there is still a cancellation issue at play which needs to be addressed.
It's possible that's down to the XLR to 1/4" cable you were using so, sure, I guess pick up a new XLR to XLR cable first,
but please do come back and let us know how your two signals combine when you've done that, to ensure that that original issue has been resolved.

Oh interesting... so what are line cables really used for then like direct sound like pass-through? Like you could use line cables from mixer to interface as no preamplifier?

 

[TalismanRich]

Line level connections are expecting to see voltage ranges of maybe 0.5 to 1 Volt. Microphone inputs (XLR) typically are seeing things in the 5 to 50 millivolt range. If you are sending an SM57 into a line level input, you are getting about 1/1000 of what it should get. Also, a microphone should see about 2000 to 3000 ohm impedance. The line level of the Scarlett solo is 60,000 ohms and if you set it for instrument level, it is 1,500,000 ohms.

If you are using XLR to line level or instrument level, you are getting a totally mismatched setup.

Get an XLR to XLR cable, plug one mic into the 1st Solo input. You don't need the 48V with an SM57, and don't use the AIR button.

That should give you a proper recording. Also, abandon all the distortion until you get a decent clean guitar sound from your amp. THEN, you can start to add distortion to color the sound.

 

[Simplex09]

"mic 1 XLR to Line (Edge of speaker)"
Almost certainly your problem.

Your microphones need to see a microphone preamplifier, and microphone preamplifiers are accessible via XLR input.
On more or less all modern interfaces and mixers 1/4" inputs are for either line or instrument level input.

You should definitely use microphone > XLR to XLR > Mixer

That being said, both of your attached recordings sound much fuller than the original clip so there is still a cancellation issue at play which needs to be addressed.
It's possible that's down to the XLR to 1/4" cable you were using so, sure, I guess pick up a new XLR to XLR cable first,
but please do come back and let us know how your two signals combine when you've done that, to ensure that that original issue has been resolved.

Ok excellent thanks for your help and going into detail about this makes a lot of sense now. I really appreciate your help because I never knew that there was so much that goes into recording a amplifier.

 

[ecc83]

Ok excellent thanks for your help and going into detail about this makes a lot of sense now. I really appreciate your help because I never knew that there was so much that goes into recording a amplifier.

You are most welcome. You do seem to have some 'gaps' in your audio knowledge? Basics about cables, balanced lines and levels, it is worth spending some time learning about how simple electronics is relevant to audio recording and reproduction. Things like "volts, amps, Ohms" etc will I am sure help you as you progress.
One thing I always advise folks to get, NOT musically related, is a Digital MultiMeter. Pay around 20-30 $US for something decent. Then at least you can test batteries and cable continuity!

And I don't want to be rude but I have a deep aversion to "one lung" interfaces! I would advise you to upgrade to something with at LEAST two mic inputs as soon as you can. Do you know what "MIDI" is and can do?

Dave.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Ok excellent thanks for your help and going into detail about this makes a lot of sense now. I really appreciate your help because I never knew that there was so much that goes into recording a amplifier.

You're welcome.
Hopefully you get your original issue solved and pick up a few tips along the way.

The reason I'm focussing on your cabling and polarity, I don't think I properly explained.
As mentioned your recording software may, rather unhelpfully, call it phase - You know the symbol now, regardless.

Your microphones will have three pins in their base. A positive, negative, and shield.
The positive and negative both carry signal and with a single mic and single source it doesn't really matter what way around they are - We won't perceive a difference.
When you have two microphones, though, it's important for them (and their cables, and anything else that's two conductor in the audio path) to match polarity,
because if they are wired opposite to each other they will almost completely cancel out when played back together.

You can prove this digitally in your daw to hear the effect.
If you take any recording at all that sounds ok and duplicate it so there's now two copies playing back at the same time,
then flip polarity on one, you should hear total silence.
If they're panned apart you will hear something but it will be very thin and weak - Like your original recording.

Anyway - Unless you have some specific routing need for the mixer, like feeding multiple destinations or monitoring other external sources,
I'd agree with Dave - A modest two channel interface, or more if you intend to expand, is a good solid place to be.
If your mixer is USB, which it looks like, then it is technically a two channel interface but it's important to note
when trying to record two separate sources/mics you'd have to have one panned hard left and one panned hard right in order to keep the separated in your daw.

A mixer has its place and if your workload requires one that's totally fine but, if not, a two channel (or more) audio interface and XLR to XLR cables
may keep life simpler moving forward.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Oh interesting... so what are line cables really used for then like direct sound like pass-through? Like you could use line cables from mixer to interface as no preamplifier?

Anything marked 'line output' is a suitable source for interface or mixer line input.
It's a much stronger level of signal than instrument (guitar pickups) or microphone level.
@TalismanRich explained this well.

Line output is common on electric keyboards, synthesisers, effects units, mixing desks, standalone recorders, etc.
Plugging a dynamic microphone in to a line out will technically work, as you found out, but it's not an ideal match.

 

[Simplex09]

Anything marked 'line output' is a suitable source for interface or mixer line input.
It's a much stronger level of signal than instrument (guitar pickups) or microphone level.
@TalismanRich explained this well.

Line output is common on electric keyboards, synthesisers, effects units, mixing desks, standalone recorders, etc.
Plugging a dynamic microphone in to a line out will technically work, as you found out, but it's not an ideal match.

Thanks for your help! I ordered shure xlr cables today so ill be interested in seeing the results. I wanted high quality cables as i did not want any chance of the cables causing issues.

And now that you mentioned it i hear it in daw when you phase one track you hear total silence

 

[rob aylestone]

Never get taken in by cable manufacturer’s comments. The cable that came with my first SM57 is still in my cable case somewhere, a bit stiffer than it was 48 years ago, but often in use. Ignore all ‘special’ claims in the future. Dave’s mention about a meter is important because it can test that all pins in a cable emerge the other end, connected, dont get swapped and dont touch each other. Its not 100% but if you have say 40 cables, the poor ones can be selected by feel, weight and bendyness. If you start to read the technology side attached to music, you find that some instruments, like guitars, work better on some cables than others, and while a microphone can be hundreds of metres away from your mixer or interface, guitars cannot. You can get cable better able to prevent interference getting in, ideal for jobs where you are near high powered transmitters or people doing welding, and other cable designed to be super bendy, or even hung across large gaps, wierd circumstances. However, unscrupulous sellers tell you they improve your sound, or dont include any oxygen in the copper or make wild claims on sound quality. Ignore this stuff. Decent cable will not fail when you run a flight case over it, while cheap stuff squishes. Some really horrible cable melts when you solder your own connectors on. Nasty cable might crimp the ends, so poorly the connectors fall off.

Read up as much as you can so you can avoid wasting money!

 

[ecc83]

Rob is bang on the money. Cables make absolutely no difference to sound quality in 99.9% of cases. The exception is the passive guitar but even there, IF a cable changes the sound from another that is a secondary effect caused by the primitive and ill thought out properties of guitar pickups we have inherited. Further explanation can be given if desired.

The shield, aka "screen" of say a mic cable can be of several forms and some are slightly better at keeping out Radio Frequency Interference but again, only a problem in extreme circumstances and in any case, RFI problems are almost always due to poor design in the audio equipment in use.

I used to make my own cables, mainly for my son, but find soldering a bit of a trial these days so I have taken to buying ready mades...They are SO cheap! Even if I bought a 100m drum of mic cable and 50 budget XLRs I could not match the prices The one caveat I would give is that some XLR plugs are out of tolerance and jam in the socket. By all means buy budget cables but try them in an XLR on day one and if they are tight, bounce them back. This, to be fair is not a new problem. I had it with some XLR cables from Maplin and how long have they been gone!

And "Horses for courses" if you have a need to run a dozen balanced lines in a semi-fixed situation, to and from a patch bay say. Don't buy expensive 6-6.5mm 'stage quality' mic cable. Cable of about 3mm dia is easier to work with and usually has a foil screen, excellent for RFI, and a single drain earth wire...dream to solder up!

DIY advice is ready if you need it.

Dave

 

[TalismanRich]

Luckily, the Shure cables aren't sold as exotic high dollar cable. 25ft runs $21 from Shure, which just about covers the cost of a couple of Neutrix XLR and some cable.

It's not like Monster who sells a similar cable for $85. ??

 

[ecc83]

Luckily, the Shure cables aren't sold as exotic high dollar cable. 25ft runs $21 from Shure, which just about covers the cost of a couple of Neutrix XLR and some cable.

It's not like Monster who sells a similar cable for $85. ??

That's about 18 quid in our money and an 8mtr cable. Yes, fair and economies of scale (and robots!) mean Shure are making a turn on that. Not a big one but a bit of profit.

Dave.

 

[Simplex09]

So I bought two new Shure cables and this is the results the only thing is I think my audio mixer is faulty or something because if I was to pan the audio to right or left it doesn't work at all it still a stereo sound. So this was recorded with the solo. So on eBay I was looking at a 'Focusrite Scarlett USB Interface 18i8' for $140 USD which I might return the mixer and buy that instead as that has four XLR inputs which seems a bit to much for what I need it for but it would give me lots of options and I wouldn't need to upgrade it. I have the mics about half a inch away from the grill maybe less.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I was looking at a 'Focusrite Scarlett USB Interface 18i8' for $140 USD

Good choice. I have a 1st gen 18i8 and two 3rd gen models.
I think they might be on 4th gen now.
I have no complaints about the audio quality.

 

[Simplex09]

Good choice. I have a 1st gen 18i8 and two 3rd gen models.
I think they might be on 4th gen now.
I have no complaints about the audio quality.

Glad to hear that! I mean its perfect if you want to record by yourself as it has the lots of inputs. But I guess there isn't a huge difference between gen 3 and 4.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

it has the lots of inputs.

4 balanced preamp inputs on the front.
Another 4 unbalanced lin-in jacks on the back.
And then 8 ADAT input channels, although I couldn't get the ADAT to sync with my Behringer ADA800.
The 18i8 does not provide an ADAT clock connector, but my ADA8000 works fine with other stuff which does have a clock connector.
Maybe it works ok with Focusrite's ADAT box.